Frost DK Stat Priorities for 2H

90 Night Elf Death Knight
5020
When reforging-

I was told it goes Hit(cap)>Expertise(cap)>Haste>Mastery>Crit

Is this true?
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Yes, although Mastery will trump Haste with the next patch.
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90 Human Death Knight
0
03/06/2011 8:49 PMPosted by Krinu
Mastery will trump Haste with the next patch.


....For what, 2h Frost?


How?
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100 Worgen Death Knight
16180
...For what, 2h Frost?


How?


I think he is somehow equating the Frost Strike damage increase and the Howling Blast single target increase into meaning Mastery will somehow overtake haste for Frost 2h which I just don't see happening. Those changes only affect the strike or spells damage, the mastery per % of mastery value still stays the same thus we'll want haste for our runes and whatnot still as priority.
Edited by Phaaze on 3/6/2011 9:53 PM PST
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85 Tauren Death Knight
4905

Believe it or not, he's right. Unless you don't believe that with Frost Damage being a even larger portion of your overall damage, it won't push the stats value up about .05 DPS. Then I'm sorry.


Care to point me to where this info came from? while i don't dismiss the theory totally i find it hard to swallow without evidence given (in my mind) the haste will be needed to generate the rp to fill in the gcd's we get from blood of the north, which may raise haste just as much as mastery.

In an ideal set 2h frost wants haste/mastery pieces as much as possible after caps anyway, but i'm interested in seeing how it gets to switching given the extra resource benefits haste gives over it's obvious dps increases, and the fact we don't seem to be talking frost pres either.
Edited by Avengingbeef on 3/7/2011 4:37 AM PST
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Currently, Mastery is ~0.8 DPS increase per point and Haste is a ~0.85 DPS increase per point, assuming you're in a standard set of raiding/crafted/reputation epic gear. If you're in heroic raid gear, you're not asking questions about stat weights on the DK forum.

There are three major components to the buff we're receiving next patch as 2H frost:
1. Frost Strike going from 110% weapon damage to ~130% weapon damage. Napkin math puts this at a ~3.5% increase to damage done.
2. Howling Blast's single-target damage is getting increased by 20% or so. Napkin math has this one at ~3% more damage done.
3. Blood Strike is being dropped completely from our rotation, and in the place of two blood strikes we will be receiving an additional obliterate. This one's hard to do without a sim - the extra obliterate isn't a big deal, but it'll ease the restrictions on our rotation a lot.

We're seeing, minimum, a 7% increase in overall single-target damage and my gut says it'll be closer to 10%. Most of that damage will be Frost damage. The stat weights are so close now that adding this much frost damage to our rotation will tip the scales toward mastery. Additionally, If the freed GCDs from losing blood strikes in our rotation puts Frost Presence back on the table, Mastery gains in weight and Haste drops due to the way haste interacts with unholy presence.

We may actually see an interesting situation in which two 2H Frost builds are viable and optimal in their own rights: An Unholy Presence-oriented build that gears heavily for haste and revolves around cycling lots of smaller strikes very quickly, and a Frost Presence-oriented build that gears for mastery and focuses on landing fewer, far heavier strikes.

We live in interesting times, my friends.
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85 Tauren Death Knight
4905
if you're going to go that route look at glyph of icy touch replacing fs as well(for the fros pres build), enough rp may be generated that the extra rp cost doesn't matter/ it keeps rp capping to a minimum.

Still don't see it being optimal over haste though (gut feeling)
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90 Human Death Knight
14375
Haste just slightly edges past mastery as is, correct?
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85 Tauren Death Knight
2125
using duel weapons for a frost dk it signifigantly better than a 2-h. your killing machine procs a hell of alot more and the damage is the same. i have did testing on this and thats what my conclusion came out to be.
when killing maching procs use obliterate its does alot more damage and only use frost strike when your obliterate is on cool down due to runes.
Edited by Daterminator on 3/7/2011 5:38 AM PST
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85 Tauren Death Knight
4905
03/07/2011 5:15 AMPosted by Mumit
Haste just slightly edges past mastery as is, correct?


for entirely different reasons, and both are going to have new reasons within the patch to be more valuable.

Edit: After a night of sleeping on it, in my mind on the theory of it(and i haven't tested this mind) it's only reinforced that the haste method would be the optimal way to go. If not, both frost specs (2h and dw) would gear the same now, which they don't because of the glut of excess rp generated via MotFW in a said 2h frost pres build. It's also been noted that 1 oblit generates more rp than 2 x bs, further building on this problem.

While gearing a 2h build like current dw build would have value on an aoe/heavy melee off target time fight, and would probably be competitive with/slightly above dw frost, the single target numbers would stack in a haste setup's favor. We will however probably see the value of haste become more fluid for all frost specs, similar to hit/rage interaction for a fury warr in that players will stack it until they are comfortable with the rp generation and any downtime created by lack of rp........
Edited by Avengingbeef on 3/7/2011 5:44 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
03/07/2011 5:46 AMPosted by Avengingbeef
Haste just slightly edges past mastery as is, correct?


for entirely different reasons, and both are going to have new reasons within the patch to be more valuable.

Edit: After a night of sleeping on it, in my mind on the theory of it(and i haven't tested this mind) it's only reinforced that the haste method would be the optimal way to go. If not, both frost specs (2h and dw) would gear the same now, which they don't because of the glut of excess rp generated via MotFW in a said 2h frost pres build. It's also been noted that 1 oblit generates more rp than 2 x bs, further building on this problem.

While gearing a 2h build like current dw build would have value on an aoe/heavy melee off target time fight, and would probably be competitive with/slightly above dw frost, the single target numbers would stack in a haste setup's favor. We will however probably see the value of haste become more fluid for all frost specs, similar to hit/rage interaction for a fury warr in that players will stack it until they are comfortable with the rp generation and any downtime created by lack of rp........


2H goes Unholy Presence because of excess resource generation in Frost Presence, right? They can actually use all their resources with the 1s GCD. Haste is good because the 1s GCD gives them far more open time than they need. The 4.1 rune changes will make it so we have even MORE open time in our rotation. If it gets to the point where we have enough open time that we can move to FP and not be resource capped, it is flat-out better to do so.

UP gives 10% rune regen, 10% attack speed, 15% move speed, and a 1s GCD.
FP gives 15% damage and 15% RP generation.

If you are not resource capped by your GCD or resource starved due to a lack of MotFW procs/haste/passive rune regen buffs, FP will be superior damage. If you're close to GCD locked, haste only gives a slight damage boost - a few more KM procs and extra autoattack damage. Mastery buffs a full ~50% of our damage, and it'll be higher with the patch.

Basically, if we free up enough GCDs with the BS change and we can afford the slight rune regen nerf for a slight RP generation buff - a decent change, given the buff to FS - FP will be better to DPS in for mastery-stacking 2H DKs.

One thing to note is that the Unholy Presence build has two more talent points to play with - Improved Frost Presence is pretty underwhelming if you're not in frost presence.
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85 Tauren Death Knight
4905


2H goes Unholy Presence because of excess resource generation in Frost Presence, right? They can actually use all their resources with the 1s GCD. Haste is good because the 1s GCD gives them far more open time than they need. The 4.1 rune changes will make it so we have even MORE open time in our rotation. If it gets to the point where we have enough open time that we can move to FP and not be resource capped, it is flat-out better to do so.

UP gives 10% rune regen, 10% attack speed, 15% move speed, and a 1s GCD.
FP gives 15% damage and 15% RP generation.



These 2 make my point though, we are still generating MORE rp regardless of pres in 4.1, and 2h's still use many more fs than the measly 1 per 15 sec or so that you are going to get extra. Add to that the extra rune regen + haste= more oblits over a frost pres dk and we get even more rp generated over a 4.0.6 dk. As i said in my last post, a mastery stacking frost pres dk will do alright and be quite competitive, but it won't top a haste/up for single target.
Edited by Avengingbeef on 3/8/2011 11:32 PM PST
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85 Orc Death Knight
2955
i'm not the greatest with a dk but i thought that strength had a priority. and i would also like to know wut the hit and expertisxe cap was. Sorry im not the smartest wit this game yet.
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
4180
03/11/2011 11:08 AMPosted by Olzar
i'm not the greatest with a dk but i thought that strength had a priority. and i would also like to know wut the hit and expertisxe cap was. Sorry im not the smartest wit this game yet.


8% hit
26 expertise
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100 Human Death Knight
13665
Currently, Mastery is ~0.8 DPS increase per point and Haste is a ~0.85 DPS increase per point, assuming you're in a standard set of raiding/crafted/reputation epic gear. If you're in heroic raid gear, you're not asking questions about stat weights on the DK forum.

There are three major components to the buff we're receiving next patch as 2H frost:
1. Frost Strike going from 110% weapon damage to ~130% weapon damage. Napkin math puts this at a ~3.5% increase to damage done.
2. Howling Blast's single-target damage is getting increased by 20% or so. Napkin math has this one at ~3% more damage done.
3. Blood Strike is being dropped completely from our rotation, and in the place of two blood strikes we will be receiving an additional obliterate. This one's hard to do without a sim - the extra obliterate isn't a big deal, but it'll ease the restrictions on our rotation a lot.

We're seeing, minimum, a 7% increase in overall single-target damage and my gut says it'll be closer to 10%. Most of that damage will be Frost damage. The stat weights are so close now that adding this much frost damage to our rotation will tip the scales toward mastery. Additionally, If the freed GCDs from losing blood strikes in our rotation puts Frost Presence back on the table, Mastery gains in weight and Haste drops due to the way haste interacts with unholy presence.

We may actually see an interesting situation in which two 2H Frost builds are viable and optimal in their own rights: An Unholy Presence-oriented build that gears heavily for haste and revolves around cycling lots of smaller strikes very quickly, and a Frost Presence-oriented build that gears for mastery and focuses on landing fewer, far heavier strikes.

We live in interesting times, my friends.


Where did you get your Mastery and Haste per point %? I believe those are outdated. From my sims, Haste is still king and will be in 4.1
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85 Draenei Death Knight
9325
Please never quote numbers without backing from simcraft, at the very least.
In full 372, for 2H frost, Haste is 1.3 DPS/pt and Mastery is 0.91 DPS/pt. (http://simulationcraft.org/406/death_knight_auto.html)
Yes, I know that's 4.0.6, but the changes to Frost damage don't outweigh that difference between scaling. It will be closer than 1.3 and 0.91, but they won't switch positions in our priority.

Haste will still be king in 4.1, and perhaps even through 4.2. Only once we can break the Haste cap will mastery take over. I don't foresee that happening for at least another tier or so.

STR > hit (to 8%) > haste > exp (to 26) > crit > mastery
Quoth the simcraft, forevermore.
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85 Draenei Death Knight
9325
Is it? That's news to me. I don't expect simcraft to be anything near perfect, but it's a good estimate. I know some simcraft dev has been posting on the DK thread on EJ; can you link where it was said that they don't have the right calculations?
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