Break the HHTD mod already.

89 Human Mage
11140
Thanks for making me aware of this addon. I'm going to get it.


Re: telling bad players what to do...

Good! They need to be told what to do so they stop being bad!

Those against HHTD want to rely on enemy failure for your win, instead of earning your win with truly superior play. All that's making you superior is being average vs. inferior, which is not the same as being superior vs. average. If you heal and get away with never getting attacked, it's not because you are good, it's because your enemy is fail. You're not actually winning - your opponents are losing. There's a difference.

This is something i said about version 1 TB when it first came out: the attackers could not win it, but the defenders could lose it. You had to fail pretty bad as the defending team to lose, but there wasn't much the attacking team could do to win except hope that the defenders failed. That's not really a win, that's just showing up. It's a bit more balanced now, but this isn't a thread about TB. My point is about what makes for a win and what defines success. Your opponent's failure doesn't really make you successful or good. It just means you didn't fail as badly as they did.

Everyone agrees that a good pvp player will target healers anyway. A good team will help raise awareness among the other team members to say "everybody kill IHEALYOU the enemy paladin healer topping the healing meters" or whoever. Everyone agrees that killing healers first is the best strategy. There's nothing game breaking about encouraging proper play.

You should assume that your enemy is good and play your own strategies and show your own mad skills to succeed, instead of relying on your enemy to be bad. Defeating fail bad players who are too dumb to target healers doesn't make you good or successful. If they roll over and hand you the win on a platter, that doesn't make you good, skilled, or pro. All that means is you can farm bad players who don't know what they're doing. Um, good for you? You're so good you can defeat teams who don't target you. I'm so impressed by your mad skillz... not.


Re: Blizzard doesn't allow standard raid markers to be placed on enemy players

I don't believe that Blizzard's restriction against marking enemy players with standard raid icons has anything to do with protecting healers. I never considered that the intent of that restriction. It strikes me as a technical limitation related to things like the marked player seeing that he's marked, and/or the raid marker persisting through stealth, or things like that making them err on the side of turning that function off in pvp since it probably has defective ramifications in pvp that go far beyond identifying the healer.

It absolutely makes sense in WoW game design to allow a BG raid leader to mark enemy players for focus fire. Same in arena. Same in any pvp environment. It's just a way of simplifying teamwork coordination/communication, which is game-improving, not game-breaking.


Re: AVD

The difference here is that AVD would have also drawn an arrow on your screen to point you in the direction of the healer (behind you or outside your vision), and drawn a circle on the ground to show their max healing range, and another overlapping circle on the ground to show your own max range, and probably found a way to show them to you through walls, and gone quite a bit farther than a name plate enhancement.

I had no problem with AVD, other than I'm generally aware enough as it is, so that kind of thing usually just clutters up my screen and achieves the opposite result of actually lowering my awareness.

I have no problem with anyone using any kind of tool to raise their awareness, especially if they are on my team and actually reacting to that improved awareness.

HHTD isn't setting your target for you. It's not making the healer move up to the front where I can reach him through a mess of dps standing around him. It's not enabling me to dps through his heals. It's not optimizing my timing on counterspell to interrupt the right heal at the right time.
85 Draenei Priest
5545
I often start a BG checking for all possible healers in the preparation area. That is I click, check mana and check talent specs


As with any other add-on, is meant to terminate boring tasks such as this ;)

Then you shouldn't care at all if they disable it, cause by your own words, no dps will be affected at all.
Lulz...whatever


Why bother to terminate something so little? that's the logic

Your entire argument for why this addon is irrelevant, useless, trivial, unnecessary, <insert whatever point you were trying to make here>, is flawed.

Not a single one of your attempted analogies holds up:

DBM: Does not tell you <That guy> is a healer the moment he casts a healing spell in a battleground. Also, it doesn't automatically mark targets for you even if it did "call out" healers.

TidyPlates: That's just a nameplate addon and serves no purpose whatsoever in automatically identifying healers based on what spell they just cast, nor does it mark targets.

Disable the use of marking: Do your homework. The ability to mark targets in PVP is already disallowed. This addon circumvents that restriction and provides marks on the healers the moment they cast a healing spell. Granted, only you can see that mark, but it's still a circumvention of the system as it's intended to work.

Ethical or "fairness" arguments aside, the addon as it currently functions actively bypasses systems put in place to help "even the playing field" and require player interaction and involvement when negotiating who is/is not a healer. On that basis alone the addon should be rendered ineffective by Blizzard.

Oh, and no they wouldn't have to destroy DBM, TidyPlates, the ability to mark, etc. in order to kill the addon. Not only because none of those addons or the functions they relate to have anything to do with thus, but also because they've demonstrated in the past that they're quite capable of "exterminating" an addon without adversely affecting whatever systems those addons were related to.


It's not the same thing as raid marking, it doens't have the same atributes, it doens't work the same way nor does it behaviour in the same way. It's not raid marking.

What he's telling is that in order to break this add-on they would need to do at least one of the two things. Forbid to scan heals at the battle log, or forbid to modify the nameplates. Yes, this would break a lot of add-ons as Tidyplates for example.

And I don't remember a single add-on Blizzard broke who didn't take functionality of other add-ons, every time they did, it affected more than one add-on and they have to explain why they did it.

1. There's a HUGE difference between watching nameplates and having a big red cross placed over someone else's head. Maybe not as much at a node where there's just 2 or 3 players in total, but what about in the general melee of the first pass by by in a Warsong Gulch where up to 20 players clash and focus firing is critical? Or in a huge throng of one of the bigger battlegrounds? Very very big difference.


You won't find a healer just by the name plates, there a lot of more into it that makes the job much easier if you're searching for one. The amount of effort changed by this add-on is minimum since the effort to find a healer is minimum and easy taks. Hell, sometimes I find the healer before the add-on does.

If it becomes widespread it will totally destroy the BG experience for pretty much all healers, and right now provides a massive advantage for people using it (not really an issue in arenas, but will be in Rateds). There's a good reason why Blizzard has disabled marking enemy players.


If it becomes widespread that's what will happen. Bad healers will start to die as soon as the battle begins, DPS will cry out together with them, and them both will come QQ for blizzard's god like mercy and break the addon.

That's what should happen. Healers are dying more than before, they need to start playing as good healers and kite their attacks while their teammate kill the chasers. That's teamwork.

And again. It's not raid marking.

That's not simply a Quality of Life issue. That's total Automation and performing Targeting way outside what blizzard allows players to do.


It's not raid marking.

For the players affected by the addon, it can be extremely frustrating and discouraging. Why should other players' enjoyment of the game be marred by an addon of supposed convenience? Choosing targets should always be the prerogative of the player, not addons.


I'm affected by it, I'm not crying a tear. The addon does not target for you, it marks for you, it's your choice to target it or no.

Well yes but once it becomes as widespread as avr used to be, visible only to the user becomes a totally moot point.
Nameplate viewable distances is a shortcoming but in a group vs. group skirmish in AV or IoC, it helps you pick out certain role much easier. They aren't exactly 100 yds away.

It is currently allowed by rules for addons...until it isn't. Same applied to avr until it didn't. And healbot (the vanilla style) until it didn't. And decursive until it didn't. And so on.
Point is, violation of the spirit of the rules kinda changes with time, and if players make enough noise over this, and it becomes too widespread a tool to quickly squash healers, blizz may pay attention and change the said rules.

Unfortunately I don't see how they'd break this without breaking a lot of other functionalities. So from a practical point of view, this may not really be possible, true. I still maintain it is unfair advantage dps is given over healers. Nobody likes having a target painted on their heads, I don't care how easy it is to code it in or parse a log for it.

The fact that so many dps in this thread alone, find it useful enough to go and download, speaks for itself I think even with all the fancy nameplate addons out there, castbars galore and class icons, right down to cooldowns on the nameplates.


My friend plays on a intel single core 2.8, a graphic card Gforce 5200 or whatever, 2gb ram. Yes he plays on the miminum graphics, and in IoC and AVs turtle his FPS goes to 3-5 FPS, yes slideshow, thats bad. And with this settings he still manages to find the healers without the addon . If you just go for the healer in an AV turtle you're most likely screwed, good healers stand in the middle or behind the crowd, if an attackable target gets in there, he will be !@*#d just by tab button from everyone near him, and it will be a lot of people near him. Also, healers need to learn to kite.

And again, for the third time you don't respond correctly to my points. 40s BGs are not base for judgement!

However, and addon like HHTD is definitely targeted at healers only, and could pretty much make it impossible for a healer to function in PvP at all. Healers are definitely a priority BG target the way that no other class or role is.


I PvP since TBC. What this means? It means BG's were affected by battlegroup, it means premades were common. It was a pug against a premade. People who didn't never see each other, agains't people coordinated. It means the premade group always went for the healers, the whole damn team. And still by this settings, I manage to survive encounters, I manage to heal and make them kill the chasers (I was disc at the time), and we won some premades. You know why? Killing the healers is not a infallible strategy. The healing community needs to stop being lazy, stick for what they love, and play by the state of PvP.

It may only be modifying the nameplate, but it does it in such a way that it becomes a de facto raid marker


It's not raid marking!!!

It can currently be fooled. But with some configuration and some of the planned updates, you won't be able to trick it with, say, a Prot Pally casting a heal.


No it can't. In order to do that, they would trepass the modding line and come to hacking line. You now why? You can't inspect opposite faction player.

And yes it is too powerful because it can potentially functionally nullify an entire pillar of the WoW trinity: healers. You can't do this to tanks or DPS because there is no reason to target them specifically. Imagine an addon that functionally eliminated stealth. That would have to be banned too because it would pretty much eliminate rogues from pvp entirely.


Marking a healer does not kill them. There is an addon that tell when someone use something of stealth near you, it's called stealthwatcher, and it doesn't destroy steatlh from the game. And addon the eliminates stealth from the game can only be compared to an addon that elimates healing from the game. Which is not the case.
Edited by Draghinazza on 3/8/2011 3:58 PM PST
85 Orc Warlock
5040
That does seem like it violates some rule.

+1 vote for Blizz to break this.
I'm a little curious why you can't set raid markers on the opposing force in the first place? Why do I need an addon to do this for me? And maybe I want the healer to simply be CC'd?

All this does is force a change in tactics. You need to position yourself as a healer in such a way that the opposing force has to charge through your advance to kill you. If you're in arena or rated BG's you'll be asking for a peel and you may have your own raid marker so that your allies can easily locate you on the battlefield.

I heal pvp. And I approve of this addon. It really is no different than gladius. I don't think it's wrong to know what spec it is that you're fighting against and prioritize the kill\cc order accordingly.

85 Draenei Priest
5545
Like yesterday.

It's bad enough BGs may even have one healer on them for 10 players, but if they're repeatily singled out by such mods, it makes it even harder to even want to heal.

Getting focused down because of such addons that will auto-mark you with a hunter's mark, is indeed game breaking (and the arena addons too, that make even playing not a game of skill, just watching CDs).

Holys don't wear gear that's different from Prots and Rets from sight, for example, so any addon that marks based on scanning trees is a capital no no.



It doesn't scan opposite faction players spec trees, because it can't. Modding does not permit that, that would be hacking. It can scan allied players to find their spec and scan opposite faction players amount of healing to mark them as healer or no.

Healers can perfectly survive being target. They'll just need to adapt to the new scenario.
85 Night Elf Rogue
7155
Hmm, I might make an addon to mark players attacking your healers :)

(or someone else can if they want, either way)

Until then, best suggestion is to stop healing BGs if the new situation is found to be annoying. Perhaps having no healers will be equally annoying for others? :P
Edited by Real on 3/8/2011 2:33 PM PST
85 Human Paladin
4815
03/08/2011 10:59 AMPosted by Lockslyn
And yes it is too powerful because it can potentially functionally nullify an entire pillar of the WoW trinity: healers. You can't do this to tanks or DPS because there is no reason to target them specifically. Imagine an addon that functionally eliminated stealth. That would have to be banned too because it would pretty much eliminate rogues from pvp entirely.


Completely nullify healers? Seriously? In Rated BG's and Arenas killing healers first is already an important strategy, but yet there are still healers in demand there, and it's certainly not that hard to identify them for competent players. So if healers are still in demand in high level brackets where the functionality of this addon is totally superfluous, it's hard to say that less skilled/geared players that have it will suddenly change everything.

The only thing this addon does is help you identify targets that you would already be looking for. If the only thing that keeps healers effective is the ability for the other team not to notice them then there is a serious problem that does not involve this addon at all.
85 Draenei Priest
5545
Hmm, I might make an addon to mark players attacking your healers :)


That would be nice :) So that bad DPSers can train to protect their healers.
Edited by Draghinazza on 3/8/2011 2:39 PM PST
90 Draenei Shaman
0
You probly use healbot too heal in pvp, or some other healing add on. Should Blizz break those too because it makes it easier to heal? Quit complaining, you're a healer, of course your gonna be targeted first in pvp.
85 Troll Priest
4475
Thanks for the tip, I'll download it right now.

Add-ons, doing what competent players should have been doing since 2004.


I heartily disaggree. Add-ons are for lazy incompentent blokes who don't really like playing the game. They like taking an unfair advantage and then crediting their skills.

Take a REAL challenge. Do the game WITHOUT ANY add-ons.

Face difficulty yourself, without your computer making it easy.

Find out what it's like, to REALLY PLAY THE GAME!
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9980
I heartily disaggree. Add-ons are for lazy incompentent blokes who don't really like playing the game. They like taking an unfair advantage and then crediting their skills.

Take a REAL challenge. Do the game WITHOUT ANY add-ons.

Face difficulty yourself, without your computer making it easy.

Find out what it's like, to REALLY PLAY THE GAME!


My PoV: Better living through addons.

I'm playing a better game than anyone who sticks with the default UI.
55 Blood Elf Hunter
960
This shouldnt be broken. I dont think they even CAN break it. Switch your class maybe?
90 Blood Elf Paladin
6040
So why are all of these people defending this addon and saying that it's just as easy to find a healer themselves. Shouldn't those people have no problem with this addon going away?
90 Tauren Druid
17205
wait wait wait, are you saying theres a mod out there that makes horde actually attack healers? Woot! Time to go troll all the fails who dont attack heals =D
85 Goblin Death Knight
4675
HHTD, just found this addon a couple days ago, I must admit it is nice (from a dpsers point of view) because I have a bad problem of herp derp tunnle vision lol.

But i do agree... It is VERY unfiar in pvp,

It has however helped me a fair bit in pve. (works same way as in pvp)
90 Blood Elf Paladin
9980
03/08/2011 4:31 PMPosted by Arrann
So why are all of these people defending this addon and saying that it's just as easy to find a healer themselves. Shouldn't those people have no problem with this addon going away?


It bothers me because any move Blizzard makes to disable this addon will also disable numerous other addons.

It also bothers me because I don't feel users of this addon deserve to be penalized.

It also bothers me because disabling this addon is time and money Blizzard could better spend elsewhere. Taking no action is the default, you must justify the action. Nobody has.
90 Undead Priest
17300
03/08/2011 5:02 PMPosted by Pertinacious
It also bothers me because disabling this addon is time and money Blizzard could better spend elsewhere. Taking no action is the default, you must justify the action. Nobody has.

What was the justification for breaking AVR again?
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