Break the HHTD mod already.

85 Draenei Priest
5545
I think this mod is bad. Blizzard protected the totems from being macro'd and targeted. This basically takes it to a new lvl. I think it is against the principle that blizzard backs. If you can't figure out there is a healer, then you don't need to be playing pvp.

It does explain how I can get targeted through a massive mob when I am playing holy, yet I can run all over and not get touched in prot.


I don't think it can be compared. Macro is selecting the target automatically for you and killing it with just one button. It stands the same for AoE affecting totem, one button action. This addon only marks a healer for you, but doesn't target it for you nor does kill it, it's far more complex process to kill it.

You don't get targeted in prot well... because prot isn't healing spec. You aren't preventing people from dying not forcing them to attack you as tank would do with mobs, you don't represent any direct obstacle when trying to kill someone else. That's why healers are the first target to begin with.
Edited by Draghinazza on 3/11/2011 6:27 PM PST
85 Human Rogue
6000
So what I gather from this thread is:

Healers are mad because people are playing the game correctly?

How would RBGs be any different? with hardcore PvPs who understand killing a healer is important and correctfully single them out just as well as an addon can?
Edited by Symbolism on 3/11/2011 6:32 PM PST
90 Night Elf Priest
14340
I don't think it can be compared. Macro is selecting the target automatically for you and killing it with just one button. It stands the same for AoE affecting totem, one button action. This addon only marks a healer for you, but doesn't target it for you nor does kill it, it's far more complex process to kill it.

You don't get targeted in prot well... because prot isn't healing spec. You aren't preventing people from dying not forcing them to attack you as tank would do with mobs, you don't represent any direct obstacle when trying to kill someone else. That's why healers are the first target to begin with.


I still think you all ignore the fact that raid marking of the opposing players is forbidden by blizz for this exact reason. Marking would make them far too easy to focus fire down.
This mimics that far too effectively. It's as simple as that.
85 Draenei Priest
5545
I still think you all ignore the fact that raid marking of the opposing players is forbidden by blizz for this exact reason. Marking would make them far too easy to focus fire down.
This mimics that far too effectively. It's as simple as that.


How do you know that? I already said this isn't clear by Blizzard, they could have taken raid marking for a number of reason, too foggy to say something about it now. Unless a blue plost clarify that you can't come up with that, is too subjective.

And I already explained that the addon can't be used to efficiently coordinate a pug group to focus fire healers in BGs, is way different than raid marking.

If you're telling that marking enemy players is OP and shouldn't be allowed then work on that, raid marking has nothing to do with it.
Edited by Draghinazza on 3/11/2011 6:57 PM PST
100 Orc Hunter
16565
Sweet I am going to download this right now to use before they break it, LOL!
85 Undead Warlock
5740
Gonna go download this addon.


Thanks for bringing it to light. Now I can enjoy smashing healers :O!
85 Draenei Shaman
2975
People saying that

Thanks for the tip, I'll download it right now.

Add-ons, doing what competent players should have been doing since 2004.


Obviously have only ever played a dps in a BG, and have missed the whole point of a healer staying in the group. No matter what healer I am playing on in a BG i stay places with lots of casting effects or spells.... want to guess why? Yeah, I heal people better when I'm not alive.

Oh yeah, nevermind lets take away the ONLY thing any dps need to think about in pvp.

Quite simply:



Cheaters cheat. If we are not able to put markers over enemy players, this add-on is circumventing game mechanics to do something that is not intended. It needs to be broken.
85 Orc Mage
6660
Not that I am supporting the addon, but how is using selective nameplates cheating? The same could be said about class icons as nameplates, which is commonly used.

Warhammer had it even worse, a single button to call a target, and everyone using the addon could see him marked, wherever he was, and auto assist on to him. Bad players didn't suddenly become great, and great players didn't need it to win. It didn't change the outcome of a fight based purely on an addon, and neither will HHTD.
85 Draenei Priest
5545
Obviously have only ever played a dps in a BG, and have missed the whole point of a healer staying in the group. No matter what healer I am playing on in a BG i stay places with lots of casting effects or spells.... want to guess why? Yeah, I heal people better when I'm not alive.

Oh yeah, nevermind lets take away the ONLY thing any dps need to think about in pvp.


Well, maybe if you stop oversimplify DPS role they could have a little more respect. This addon doesn't provide any substantial advantage for hardcore PvPing (Arenas & Rated Battleground), since those groups are coordinate by other means as VoiP programs, but what we're a talking about here is what this addon might do to normal cap level battlegrounds if it becomes popular (I don't think people are worried about unbalanced leveling battlegrounds anyway). A DPS role in normal battlegrounds doesn't stop at killing people and finding healers, they're the ones who protect the flag (needs to keep a eye on it), manage CCs and Interrupts, slow down people and etc. Their function vary a lot depending on the battleground mechanic, and while we healers can do these tasks (and we often do) we aren't the best choice for it, a healer doesn't have the same amount of CC, Slows and Roots a DPS has, they're the best suited for this role as they're the best suited for interrupts in PvE groups for example.

Cheaters cheat. If we are not able to put markers over enemy players, this add-on is circumventing game mechanics to do something that is not intended. It needs to be broken.


I won't repeat myself, search for my posts in previous pages and then come up with an awesome counterargument.
Edited by Draghinazza on 3/11/2011 10:33 PM PST
100 Blood Elf Paladin
16565
This argument confuses me. All the people in this thread that are for keeping the functionality of this add-on are screaming, "I'm bad and can't figure out how to determine who is healing." But that isn't the point I want to make...

All these healers are asking for this mod to be broken because they see it as an unfair advantage. However, there are people arguing to keep it and this is where I am confused. In all BGs, everyone rejoices when there is a healer present as it greatly increases their chances at winning. Now all the people who enjoy healing are saying "hey blizz, this add-on singles us out and we already get trained like no other and on those few occasions where we escape notice and can actually heal, is what we enjoy. So please find a way to break/disable this add-on and make people find us the old fashion way because it really isn't difficult." The response being, "It doesn't violate the rules and just makes it easier to identify healers. This add-on is no different from add-ons that are currently used by majority of the wow population." However, I think it a far better response that the people who are for this add-on step back and look at the situation. The healers that step into bgs and heal you have a thankless job and you really should be on their side.

I'm currently running battlegrounds as I read this and it could be paranoia but it makes me wonder if the people who pull off their current target to gun for me, even though I'm not healing their target, are using this add-on or are just good enough to spot a healer in the chaos that is AV. I'm leaning towards the add-on cause once they get on me they can't bring me down and can't seem to figure out it only takes one really good interrupt to bring a holy pally down. These are the same people that don't understand a cc train will shut my healing down and hitting something that is cc'ed will break it.

Basically what I am saying, is the role that has had to deal with feeling weaker as they leveled, seen more hotfixes that you can count and is usually blamed for everything that goes wrong is asking for a little something so this game doesn't become much more of a pain to be looked at. Yet, everyone is against this and will then moan and complain when healing in pvp all but disappears. So step back and see it from a healer's perspective and try to sympathize, and if it is really as easy to spot healers as I know it is, then you are losing nothing.
90 Worgen Death Knight
15020

You are being rock solid dense. I'll use simple words. It MARKS the damned healer! It doesn't make any difference where the mark its, it still puts a mark in the healer. Something Blizzard does not want ANY player to be able to do. If Blizzard wanted you to be able to mark in BGs, they'd allow raid marks.

This add on is a direct circumvention of that restriction. No matter what you argue it is against what Blizz wants. They don't want you marking any class at all. Period.


YOU my good sir are completely ignorant as to what is even being discussed. The person you are calling dense has made their case as to why this is not the same as a raid marker. You are a little to lazy to go back and read any of the many times it has been said why it is not a raid marker.

Plain and simple - the assumption is that bliz disabled raid markers cause of the unfair advantage or what not.

Raid markers - 1 person gets to throw up a single mark that the raid can see as a means of coordination

HHTD marks - only you can see it and it only identifies the healers. It does not give anyone in your party or raid any kind of coordination. It does not give kill orders. it doesn't even communicate with others in your party with the same addon.

Until this addon has the functionality to communicate with others using the addon to communicate kill targets and kill orders it DOES NOT COME CLOSE to the functionality of a raid marker.

To reiterate,
This is still under the ASSUMPTION as to why blizzard disabled raid markers in pvp. With no word from blizzard as to their official reason to disable raid markers an assumption is all you can give. Assumptions are very very bad points to argue. It may turn out that they turned off raid markers in pvp because you can see them further away than the players themselves. Maybe it was because it would stay on a rogue in stealth. It may have even been because you can see it through walls. All of which you cannot do with nameplates thus the addon cant do either.

One more time just in case you missed it
1 - raid markers are for the raid to share
2 - Healers Have to Die marks are you own personal bubble. Nobody else is in your space.
3 - You don't know why blizzard turned off raid markers in pvp anyway.

Now proceed with any Valid arguments that have a solid basis. If you still do not understand the conversation, it is ok to ask.
Edited by Baahmeansno on 3/11/2011 11:26 PM PST
85 Draenei Priest
5545
You are being rock solid dense. I'll use simple words. It MARKS the damned healer! It doesn't make any difference where the mark its, it still puts a mark in the healer. Something Blizzard does not want ANY player to be able to do. If Blizzard wanted you to be able to mark in BGs, they'd allow raid marks.

This add on is a direct circumvention of that restriction. No matter what you argue it is against what Blizz wants. They don't want you marking any class at all. Period.


Oh my, sorry. I didn't know you were a blue in disguise. Why didn't you say you had the information that blizzard took the raid mark out because it was a mark? silly.

You didn't get my point and I'm being dense? I already told ya, just because blizzard took raid marking out of the game doesn't mean they forbid any form of marking. The reason to why they took raid marking out could be far more complex than just marking. Unless you're a blue and have the exact information coming from the game developers you can't say so because... they never said exactly why. So how can you know they want if they never told us exactly what they want? Because they forbid raid marking? You clearly don't understand the principles of a rule.

A rule exists in order to control the possibilities of some subject, in order to prevent something unwanted to happen. If a rule prevents more possibilities than its meant to control, is bad ruling. For example, given the number of accidents that happened with, let's say guns in parks, it is now forbidden to bring lethal weapons to parks. However, with such a simple rule, you would also prevent police officers to enter the park. The rule worked more in a way to weaken security than to improve it. The rule was so simple that didn't serve its purpose, you need to specify it more. Than the rule is changed, It's forbiden for civillians to bring lethal weapons to the park. Now the rule served it's purpose that is stop uncontrolled guns from entering the park but allowing official security agents to have strong means of protection against people who may break the rule. Security was improved.

In this sense, if you don't know what was the reason for Blizzard to remove raid marking from the game, you can't tell that this addon is making a disturbance in their system since you don't know what the ruling is meant to prevent (since they never stated clearly). To prevent all forms of marking because Blizzard forbid raid marking(an specific mode of marking) if just being too damn ignorant. Blizzard's rules are commandments written on stone not the be questioned or understood? I'm sorry, but that is just too close minded.

If HTTD was doing a very similar thing as raid marking you could say so, because they would have all the same atributes, and one of them clearly was the reason to take it out of the game. But they don't have the same atributes, the only thing they have in common is that they use icons to mark something, blizzard's ruling doesn't automatically exclude any form of PvP marking from the game until they said they excluded raid marking because it was a marking, and not for the atributes of this mode of marking (raid marking).

If you're a blue in disguise, than please, log on your work account next time, and tell us in blue that Blizzard took raid marking out of PvP game because it was a marking and forbids any type of marking. I'm not being sarcastic or funny, I wouldn't really mind this slap on my face. I only want to know the truth, and I'm not afraid of being humble and admit that I was wrong.

But, if you aren't then please, read my posts again and tell me why my counterargument over this subject is wrong. Don't go for ad hominem in me and tell me I'm dense. Explain why my counter argument is wrong, why this all isn't right and that the forbid o blizzard's marking really forbid any pvp marking. Quote even a blue that said something on the subject, that would be nice.
Edited by Draghinazza on 3/12/2011 12:35 AM PST
100 Human Priest
19865
So I don't have time to read this whole thread and I heal in PvE but I exclusively PvP as shadow, if I drop shadowform to heal myself in between fights am I going to get zerged later by idiots who can't see the shadowform? Should I start bringing food to BGs? Don't want these stupid achievements to become even more annoying......

anyway as a PvP DPS I will not be installing the mod, I think it sounds cheap/cheesy/unfair....
100 Worgen Druid
20205
Here I am on my healer. Baahmeansno is my death knight. While I may not have anything close to a what people call a decent rating in arenas on any of my toons I still use and endorse this addon.

It does nothing that any cooldown watcher, spell watcher, dps - healing meter, blizzards standard score board or any addon that tracks anything in a battle does. It identifies what kind of spells are being cast or what kind or role people are playing.

Would it be better to you if it was like Icicle and just tracked cooldowns? Then you could configure it to only show healing cooldowns used and ignore others. Oh wait.... that would put a mark on healers?

What if it read score boards or dps / healing meters and made healers health bars green, dps bars red, and people who use tank cooldowns brown? Wait.... you could just turn off the brown and then have.... OH MY green healers.....

Not liking an addon is fine. Everybody gets a little upset when they die in a BG. Some even have an epeen so big that they get these looser flags. Then they grab 5 buddies and jump the 1 person that ticked them off just so they can put a looser flag on their body. Hell, that ticks me off cause they think they are bad, using half a raid to kill 1 person just cause that cant do it themselves. Do i blame the loser flag for the bad sports and bad players? No I just call him a retard and move on.

Its not the addon that is kicking your @$$. Its getting jumped by all the people who seen you cast a heal. It is not the addons fault that people see healers as a larger threat. A threat large enough that someone said "Hey I think I am going to make an addon to help identify healers FASTER. Despite what you think, you are still going to get targeted by the same people. They downloaded the addon because they already know you are a threat and are on the lookout for you. The addon just helps them find you 2 seconds faster.
Edited by Ruid on 3/11/2011 11:49 PM PST
100 Worgen Druid
20205
So I don't have time to read this whole thread and I heal in PvE but I exclusively PvP as shadow, if I drop shadowform to heal myself in between fights am I going to get zerged later by idiots who can't see the shadowform? Should I start bringing food to BGs? Don't want these stupid achievements to become even more annoying......

anyway as a PvP DPS I will not be installing the mod, I think it sounds cheap/cheesy/unfair....


It may target you. It has 2 settings it can use. basically it is "let me know if this person has more than xxK healing" and it has "detect specific spells / talents / abilities to identify healers"
85 Draenei Priest
5545
This argument confuses me. All the people in this thread that are for keeping the functionality of this add-on are screaming, "I'm bad and can't figure out how to determine who is healing." But that isn't the point I want to make...

All these healers are asking for this mod to be broken because they see it as an unfair advantage. However, there are people arguing to keep it and this is where I am confused. In all BGs, everyone rejoices when there is a healer present as it greatly increases their chances at winning. Now all the people who enjoy healing are saying "hey blizz, this add-on singles us out and we already get trained like no other and on those few occasions where we escape notice and can actually heal, is what we enjoy. So please find a way to break/disable this add-on and make people find us the old fashion way because it really isn't difficult." The response being, "It doesn't violate the rules and just makes it easier to identify healers. This add-on is no different from add-ons that are currently used by majority of the wow population." However, I think it a far better response that the people who are for this add-on step back and look at the situation. The healers that step into bgs and heal you have a thankless job and you really should be on their side.


I'm on the healing side (this is my main) and support this add-on, if you read the topic all along you'll find other healers that also support it.

I'm currently running battlegrounds as I read this and it could be paranoia but it makes me wonder if the people who pull off their current target to gun for me, even though I'm not healing their target, are using this add-on or are just good enough to spot a healer in the chaos that is AV. I'm leaning towards the add-on cause once they get on me they can't bring me down and can't seem to figure out it only takes one really good interrupt to bring a holy pally down. These are the same people that don't understand a cc train will shut my healing down and hitting something that is cc'ed will break it.


It's most likely they were not using the addon. If the situation happened just a few times, then it's possible they had it, but if it's recurring then it goes against logic to affirm they had the addon. Because the numbers of download are too low, 50000 downloads are less than 5% of world of warcraft population, it's a long shot to think that you're finding this <5% over and over and over.

For some people AV might be a whole mess in turtle where people engage in the first thing they have in front of them. But for skilled PvPers that's not the case, I have a feral druid friend of mine that plays on a cheap computer, and obviously runs the game in a bad situation. 12 FPS at the outside world, 7-8 FPS at stormwind, 3-4 FPS at AVs/IoCs turtles. He doesn't use the addon because he said doesn't provide substantial advantage for him (since it would be more things for his poor computer to load), and even inside this mess, he manages to find the healers fast, he got used to it, it's a pattern he identifies subconsciously, without much effort. The addon didn't get popular yet, you don't need to be paranoid.

We always were a frustrating class and always will be, it's easy to understand why healing community is predicting doomsdays but the numbers tells us this day didn't come yet.
Edited by Draghinazza on 3/12/2011 12:30 AM PST
15 Goblin Hunter
140
I did not read anything other than OP's post, so forgive me if I'm stating anything that has already been said. In my opinion this add-on works the same way as Gladius for Arena. Gladius in Arena shows you the opponents specs thus making it easier to find the healer. That is exactly what the HHTD mod does, but in BGs. With the release of Rated Battlegrounds this add-on was bound to come up as Gladius was created when Arena came out. I do not see a difference here. In Arena I can understand that telling us the opposing teams spec is only for our convenience, however I feel in those huge BG's that it is almost a NECESSITY. With Battlegrounds having upwards of 10+ opposing players things can become chaotic making this add-on a must for very competitive players. Ask the Arena community how many of them go without Gladius before the new Arena Unit Frames Blizzard released and just about everyone SERIOUS will tell you they used them. Until Blizzard implements their own type of Rated Battleground Unit Frames *crosses fingers* things like this WILL and CAN happen. In the words of internet forums................................ "Deal With It".
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