Break the HHTD mod already.

95 Blood Elf Mage
12520
Thanks for the help in my PvP!

/downloads HHTD
MVP
100 Night Elf Priest
11745
Hmm, I always just assumed players had something like that. Even back in the day wearing a Benediction was a big "HEY KILL ME!" sign. I used to say "death is tactical in pvp" and my tactics basically involved staying at a point in the group where if horde wanted to kill me, they'd have to let themselves be surrounded by alliance.

I stopped pvping for the most part for other reasons than that though... but even back in TM healers knew that the second you cast a heal, you were as good as dead.


I'm sorry - are you saying that it's ok for players to use these types of addons because you assumed you would be dead the second you cast a heal anyway? That's absolutely NOT true. I've done many BGs as a healer, not many people are zoomed in on their screens where they can see me healing, and for the most part I can safely heal w/out dying after casting the first heal. But, with an addon like this, it's more of a bot targeting the healer than it is the player.

WoW has become too much about the addons. This one should be broken.


I'm saying that healers shouldn't get their hopes up that breaking the addon would stop the "steamroll the healer" effect in pvp.

I spot the healer on the opposing side pretty quick myself and try to pressure them. Humans are absurdly good at pattern recognition and we pretty much instantly process "night elf in robe casting yellow" = healer. The same goes for the other combinations.
85 Draenei Priest
5545
Ultimately it will come down to whether Blizzard decides to implement a similar functionality for their own nameplates (like having a green and white cross appear on healers' nameplates) or break the addon. It cannot be argued that it isn't a huge advantage in PvP, particularly for less-skilled PvPers or against more-skilled healers (as Thunderclaps mentioned). Whether Blizzard decides to allow this sort of thing and thus enables it as an option without needing an addon, or decides to disallow it and thus breaks HHTD, currently it presents an unfair advantage in PvP.

This doesn't equate it to DBM, by the way. The two addons are so incredibly different that anyone trying to justify HHTD's functionality by comparison to DBM is just wrong, which is why I picked your post specifically.

And it does circumvent players' ability to mark enemy players, and is different from changing the color of the nameplate. Changing the color of the nameplates is possible by the default UI (thus available to everyone), and doesn't tell you that a player is a healer (they could be a shadow priest or a ret paladin or a feral, for example). As such, it's available to everyone and has a certain functionality. That functionality does not extend to marking healers based on the fact that they've cast a heal.

PvP is one of the places where Blizzard must absolutely be stringent when it comes to addons. In PvE content, people are playing against a computer and the encounters are balanced around such. Every addon that gives an advantage in PvP must be considered by Blizzard when they're balancing the classes and specs, which is already a daunting task. If it can be assumed that most players will have HHTD and healers will be focused most of the time, they will have to consider healer PvP survivability more than they previously did, and talents and spells will have to change to match. This extends beyond just healing classes and specs, as well.


Any PvP add-on provides "unfair advantage" to other players that don't have the same add-on. Hell, it even provides "unfair advantage" to world of warcraft economy, with so many Auction, Gathering, Routers and Prospecting add-ons out there. The point is HOW MUCH it provides. This is the whole point of the discussion, a actual quantification of how unfair it can be.

For me, given the size of the so many ways to spot a healer without effort, it doesn't make much of a difference to the state of PvP. Healers have always being spotted by good players and always went after the healer, this is not a problem from cataclysm, this add-on didn't always existed. However the healer dying issue have ALWAYS being a problem. This add-on aggravated the issue, but breaking will not solve it, only minimize it. Notice this, healers dying have always being a issue that was usually ignored, this is chat that usually happened between healers and mates. Now with this addon up, making the problem bigger, some topics appears. What would be the solution? Breaking the mod and stop caring again? the way to solve this is the same as it were before the add-on. DPS need to realize we aren't there only to serve, we need feedback, we need protection in return. And this needs to happen at general level, not personal one.

This add-on can even spot allied healers (if you play with ctrl + v), making easier to see if your healbo--- I mean, the healer is in trouble. I use it with my DK, and when there is a healer around, I always save my Hungering Cold to save him, and spam Chain of Ice at every chaser.

So, how much advantage do you think it provides?
Edited by Draghinazza on 3/7/2011 2:05 PM PST
85 Worgen Rogue
1300

I'm saying that healers shouldn't get their hopes up that breaking the addon would stop the "steamroll the healer" effect in pvp.

I spot the healer on the opposing side pretty quick myself and try to pressure them. Humans are absurdly good at pattern recognition and we pretty much instantly process "night elf in robe casting yellow" = healer. The same goes for the other combinations.


Not only that. To break this mod or any further mods like it in the future, will require Blizzard to either

A) Remove all nameplate functionality (and even then, there would be other ways to handle this) which will cause problems.
B) Remove all access to the combat logs by mods. This would also break another good amount of mods.
85 Blood Elf Warlock
0
Doesn't that also kinda break the whole 'can't place marks on players' thing?

I've tried using raid markers on a player before out of boredom, and I kept getting an error saying they can't be used on enemy players.


That's a rule that doesn't make sense to me. What if you are in a rated BG team and as BG leader you want to mark a player for the team to focus fire on? Why shouldn't you be allowed to give out orders that way?
85 Gnome Mage
4855
03/07/2011 1:55 PMPosted by Grubbinz
1) It "marks" healers. Big deal. There is a person on my server that announces enemy healers during TB. He should be banned, I mean, he's helping his team mates, we should all have to determine the healers on our own.

As said, this is a PLAYER using his skill to spot healers, not an ADDON automatically marking them.

This is utter BS. PvP should have absolutely ZERO impact on anything at all. PvE shouldn't be nerfed because it is too good in PvP. PvE addons shouldn't get nerfed because of PvP (see previous point about nameplate addons getting broken as a side effect). The reason this game has gone down the crapper is PvP. It is a PvE game with some PvP thrown in on the side, and that is how it should remain.

I agree. This is why the addon needs to be removed. You've taken my statement and run directly the wrong way with it. If this addon makes a drastic change to PvP, Blizzard will have no choice but to change healers to compensate. If they change healers to compensate for something in PvP, it will change them in PvE also, thus (once again) screwing over those people who never PvP and only PvE, because of some problem with PvP.

03/07/2011 1:52 PMPosted by Draghinazza
Any PvP add-on provides "unfair advantage" to other players that don't have the same add-on. Hell, it even provides "unfair advantage" to world of warcraft economy, with so many Auction, Gathering, Routers and Prospecting add-ons out there. The point is HOW MUCH it provides.

"Unfair advantages" generally need to have a victim. In the case of gathering and auction addons, there is no victim (unless you believe that people not knowing precise spawn locations for herbs or mining nodes, or their inability to see auctions organized by the highest buyout, or their inability to see the current auction house price in a tooltip makes them a victim somehow). You'll notice that the addons that were truly unfair, like auto-auction-posting and -buying bots, have been broken.

This is the whole point of the discussion, a actual quantification of how unfair it can be.

The point of the discussion is whether or not the addon goes against Blizzard's decisions regarding PvP, such as the inability to mark players. It is, subjectively, also an argument about whether an addon that allows even the worst PvPers to suddenly be successful without putting in any effort (even the minimal effort needed to identify and focus a healer) should be left in place.

For me, given the size of the so many ways to spot a healer without effort, it doesn't make much of a difference to the state of PvP.

For you. Exactly. You and other good players (or at least players that don't suck and/or know what they're doing) have always tried to kill healers first. This addon makes it so that players who don't have the experience or common sense needed to identify and focus a healer now have an automated indicator showing who to kill.

breaking will not solve it, only minimize it.

Minimizing a problem sounds to me like a better idea than not doing anything about the problem.

What would be the solution? Breaking the mod and stop caring again? the way to solve this is the same as it were before the add-on. DPS need to realize we aren't there only to serve, we need feedback, we need protection in return. And this needs to happen at general level, not personal one.

Breaking the mod would do nothing to harm healers, it would only make them slightly harder to recognize, and/or make the players themselves have to recognize the healer.

This add-on can even spot allied healers (if you play with ctrl + v), making easier to see if your healbo--- I mean, the healer is in trouble. I use it with my DK, and when there is a healer around, I always save my Hungering Cold to save him, and spam Chain of Ice at every chaser.

Putting raid icons on friendly healers works just as well, is within the functionality of the default Blizzard UI, and does not require an addon.

So, how much advantage do you think it provides?

Judging by the people who are so fiercely insistent that this addon not be removed, and the testimony of the healers who have noticed being focused more lately as the addon became more popular, I'd say it provides quite a bit of an advantage.
86 Blood Elf Paladin
11325
Doesn't that also kinda break the whole 'can't place marks on players' thing?

I've tried using raid markers on a player before out of boredom, and I kept getting an error saying they can't be used on enemy players.


That's a rule that doesn't make sense to me. What if you are in a rated BG team and as BG leader you want to mark a player for the team to focus fire on? Why shouldn't you be allowed to give out orders that way?


Because the advantage of being able to mark an enemy player in PvP is pretty huge, and even Blizzard managed to recognize this.

of course, it's not an advantage since BOTH sides can do it, but what it does is absolutely ruin PvP for anyone who even hopes to heal.
Edited by Lockslyn on 3/7/2011 2:24 PM PST
85 Tauren Warrior
3100
It's a great mod. And I say that as a PvP healer as my main.

I don't want this to be broken.
1 Dwarf Shaman
0
03/07/2011 12:15 PMPosted by Thunderclaps
Healers are important. Do you want to be unimportant? Play a rogue.


Do you ever want to get healed or have a healer in your battleground? Break this horrible addon.


Alliance haven't had healers in BG's since around 2005. Apparently the Horde didn't need this addon.


So? He's providing information to the rest of the group that we apparently would be unable to gain on their own. And who knows, maybe he is using an addon, one that marks the chatbox instead of a nameplate.


Yes but he has to type all that out and make sure he is correct. The add on does all that for you. If all of you have that add on there is no need to take the time out to type. Of course, you would not have an issue because it works to your advantage. Play a PvP healer and have it happen to you enough, you will change your tune.

I used to BG on my priest a lot. Sure I got focused on quite a bit but more often than not I was rolling with two other people. If I got hit once they had my back. Can't survive long in a BG with dead healers. Which this add on makes happen a lot quicker than normal.
85 Gnome Mage
4855
Doesn't that also kinda break the whole 'can't place marks on players' thing?

I've tried using raid markers on a player before out of boredom, and I kept getting an error saying they can't be used on enemy players.


That's a rule that doesn't make sense to me. What if you are in a rated BG team and as BG leader you want to mark a player for the team to focus fire on? Why shouldn't you be allowed to give out orders that way?

Raid icons are visible through objects and at great range. If you put a raid icon over a healer who then ran and hid behind the one-way window in the flag room in WSG, you'd know exactly where he was even though you couldn't see him. If you put a raid icon on a healer in the Ring of Valor and he ran behind a pillar, you'd be able to see where he was even though he was out of LOS.

Hunter's Mark has already been brought up, but it is visible to both sides (i.e. everyone knows they've been marked, not just you) and is dispellable, so not the same thing.

And if you need to take the time to raidicon an enemy in arena, you need to work on your arena team's coordination. Using vent or even a "Focus %t!" macro might work better, anyway.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
SWC
11255
how exactly does this work. To my knowledge you couldn't mark players of the other faction in pvp.
86 Blood Elf Paladin
11325
03/07/2011 2:26 PMPosted by Thunderkeg


Do you ever want to get healed or have a healer in your battleground? Break this horrible addon.


Alliance haven't had healers in BG's since around 2005. Apparently the Horde didn't need this addon.


I see lots of Alliance BG healers. The problem is that barely any other Alliance bother to protect them and so they're too busy trying to save themselves to save anyone else.
03/07/2011 2:28 PMPosted by Tuesday
how exactly does this work. To my knowledge you couldn't mark players of the other faction in pvp.


It puts a big red cross over an enemy player's nameplate if they cast a healing spell.
03/07/2011 2:26 PMPosted by Thunderkeg


Do you ever want to get healed or have a healer in your battleground? Break this horrible addon.


Alliance haven't had healers in BG's since around 2005. Apparently the Horde didn't need this addon.


Hey now! My old main was a PvP Holy priest on Alliance, we do exist! We just get so frustrated that we stop doing it or go play other classes.

That guy is still stuck at 73....
86 Blood Elf Paladin
11325
03/07/2011 2:28 PMPosted by Tuesday
how exactly does this work. To my knowledge you couldn't mark players of the other faction in pvp.


It modifies their nameplate to put a giant cross over their heads. It circumvents the rules to put a de facto mark on opposing players in PvP.

Apparently it also plays a sound when a healer comes in range
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