Heroic Halls of Origination

90 Orc Hunter
15110
Lots of people want to go from point A to point B and collect their 70 valor points as fast as possible.

I would suggest adding some extra valor points to the optional bosses ( I say 5 to 10 points, per optional boss ) ..thus we would have more people doing them.

I understand we would have some instances with over 70 valor points, but what the heck...

85 Goblin Death Knight
10670
when i can opt out of running an heroic that has 7 bosses while doing my " heroic quota" of the week since raid alone dont cap it ...

then yes .. you can "force" people to kill all bosses.

Just like people need bosses, some people (myself included) are already sick of running this dungeon, but its not like i can choose which dungeon im getting on random heroic.


the problem is the same as we had before. Raiders being forced to run heroics to cap the weekly points since you need to cap it to stay competitive.
We know there’s room for improvement, though. For example, we understand that it's probably not the best idea to have optional bosses dropping loot that's BiS. Giving those bosses side-grades (rather than strict upgrades) or similar items could make the "extra loot" vs. "quicker run" decision less stressful. We also feel that optional bosses in general might work better in raids than in dungeons because raids tend to be made up of players who know each other and/or have a strong leader who's empowered to make calls about which bosses to kill.


I think this is the best solution to the problem.

As someone who has no use for Heroic gear I fully support optional bosses, if I was forced to do 7 Bosses for 70 VP I would never do HoO, if the daily random dungeon at all. Geared players shouldn't be forced into helping under-geared players, it'll just cause more friction between the two groups than there already is.

I'm really tired of people trying to demonize geared players just trying to get their VP for the day quickly. We're already forced into doing content we've grinded a million times by Blizzard, we shouldn't have to run something 1/5th of the group wants to do.
90 Undead Mage
19015
This is why I love the argument that WoW dungeons have gone downhill by being linear hallways.

Even if they put in some sprawling city like maze of a dungeon with tons of optional bosses and content, after the first week nearly every group is going to take the most linear and speediest path from entrance to finish anyway. You don't like hallways? The alternative is having dungeons turned into hallways by the players themselves. So, really, qq more.
85 Worgen Hunter
5070
I agree , i think the Final boss should only be able to be accessed if other key bosses are dead, Like the LK fight, its good enough for Raids why not 5man, and dont give me this crap about forming my own group like the old way, Why cant YOU form a group like the old way if you wanna quickie!?!
85 Human Death Knight
ONE
4725
we've learned a lot from watching groups, reading your feedback, and just playing ourselves.


Well, I'll be sure to watch for any floating GMs while I'm in my H:HoR groups now... :]
Edited by Terini on 3/15/2011 9:23 PM PDT
90 Human Death Knight
12880
Not sure if anyone else has suggested it yet, but make optional bosses like the ones from the original ZG. for every one left alive the end boss gets another ability making him more difficult, but also making the loot he drops better (how cool would it be if he could drop any of the things from the other bosses but epic quality?)
Edited by Khagan on 3/15/2011 9:28 PM PDT
85 Human Paladin
2785
If people weren't so inconsiderate it wouldn't be a problem. Seriously, it's not a big deal. Usually someone won't demand every single boss. Sometimes they just need a certain boss. It's not a pain to just do one extra boss, maybe even 2. I would do all if they wanted, but it doesn't come up often.

When I tank, what I say is simple.

"Skipping all bosses unless someone says otherwise."

If somebody wants a boss, I'll do it. I'm not going to be a jerk and impede on someone else's ability to get gear. If they need it, they can have it, but they need to at least be willing to say so. If they can't be bothered to tell me, then I have no sympathy for them.
85 Worgen Hunter
5070
Honestly HoO is actually 1 of the Shorter instances , what about H DM loooonnnggg, H SFK even skipping bosses its Looonnnggg, so what , its a game , And its more than just a Raiders game maybe there are in it for the challange of working together with people they dont know. Actually HoO has the LEAST amount of trash in cata 5 man , so doing a few bosses isnt gonna kill ya
The status of heroics for a lot of players is as a chore.

Everyone wants gear from Valor Points. Everyone has to do a heroic every day. It's a chore.
I skip every extra boss because I killed them many many times, and now I have absolutely nothing but a stack of ore maybe once a month if a do a heroic every day.

I mean if Bliz specifically changed this dungeon to be longer, I would likely drop group and just wait out my deserter/lfg cooldown, because I've got better things to do than the same heroic I've done tons and tons of times, but this time it takes longer.
85 Gnome Warlock
2805
03/15/2011 7:10 PMPosted by Lylirra
Perhaps in the next patch you could possibly set it up so you can't just skip to the last boss and you have to complete the other 3 first?


We'll need to weigh the value of optional dungeon and raid bosses further before we make any changes. There's good arguments on both sides. On the one hand, optional bosses can be great for keeping dungeons and raids from feeling too linear or formulaic -- and, when done right, they can also give groups a meaningful choice between getting extra loot and completing a run faster. On the other, optional bosses can sometimes create social tension, especially in Dungeon Finder groups, if players disagree whether they should invest the time to fight them.

We know there’s room for improvement, though. For example, we understand that it's probably not the best idea to have optional bosses dropping loot that's BiS. Giving those bosses side-grades (rather than strict upgrades) or similar items could make the "extra loot" vs. "quicker run" decision less stressful. We also feel that optional bosses in general might work better in raids than in dungeons because raids tend to be made up of players who know each other and/or have a strong leader who's empowered to make calls about which bosses to kill.

Heroic Halls of Origination is a good example of where optional bosses can cause conflicts. In retrospect, we feel that it may have been better to require players to kill all four of the "top" bosses -- Isiset, Ammunae, Setesh, and Rajh -- to get credit for their random Heroic dungeon rewards (instead of just Rajh). While we don't yet know if retrofitting the dungeon or the random dungeon reward requirements is the best course of action, we've learned a lot from watching groups, reading your feedback, and just playing ourselves. We’re definitely keeping those lessons in mind as we develop future content and if we do make any changes, we'll be sure to let you know.



Really? You guys did not read this continual back and forth complaint with the optional bosses in WOTLK? I'm rather shocked, this was a huge issue THEN!

Most of these dungeons are entirely too long! (Note I say LONG, not hard). Easy fix, remove the optional bosses and/or move their loot to the required bosses.

OR how about this ala TOC 5 man, several of the bosses have the same loot table, but when you run the dungeon it is random WHICH one you will get..

Thus you would get some change and variance in the dungeons, and make it go quicker and everyone would be happy, and keep paying 15 bucks and stuff.
90 Dwarf Hunter
13060
This skipping bosses has been an issue for a very long time. It makes gearing an alt a nightmare and was even worse during the wrath frost emblem is best gear era. The solution is simple. Either make it so every boss in the instance must be killed in order to get your daily credit (the best solution in my opinion) Or give a bonus to VP/JP if the dungeon is completed in a speedy time. It really is'nt fair that the decision on skipping or running a full rests solely on the tank. No one in a group should have a final decision on how the dungeon is gonna go. It should be a decision made by the group but now you see the 3 dps ask to go kill other bosses. The healer says he doesn't care either way but the tank says no and either sits afk till people follow him or leaves group.
90 Troll Warrior
10150
I am glad the blues have learned! I do like Halls of Origination and I've fought all the bosses in it at least a few times, but I can understand why it causes trouble in most groups.

I don't much care who dies and who doesn't. Really if I want a full clear I'll get guild help. Though maybe there are a few solutions.

1) Making the run require all.**

Pros: More loot/justice points. Takes away the source of most arguments in there. Get to experience each boss encounter.
Cons: Takes longer.

2) Make it random which one to kill. This could be announced as we go up the elevator by saying "X has controls the seat of power this day" or some such.

Pros: Gives the group experience with all the bosses eventually. Loot diversity over time.
Cons: Group may still argue over trying to do them all.

3) Have the group choose. In the halls of light there could be a switch to summon or mark the boss as final.

Pros: Lets the group choose rather than always having Raj.
Cons: Could still have arguments over who is best. Most groups would choose the "Easy" one for a faster run.

4) Combined loot pool.

Pros: Again loot variety.
Cons: Still only doing Rahj.


These are just off the top of my head. The pros/cons are probably not all thought out. Please add more to my list so we can help the blues out. I'd love to see other peoples ideas and discussion.

I will thank those now who contribute to make this game better. Keep up the good work Blizzard and constructive posters alike!

**Edit**
To add a bit to #1, you could also make the other bosses left alive actually increase Rahj's damage/life by how many are up just like in old Zul'Gurub 20man were the other bosses gave Hakkar buffs. Perhaps with a combined loot pool he could even drop more/new items for killing him with all the bosses up.

5) Maybe a bonus chest for downing all the bosses up top with extra Justice or a random item from all of their loot tables.

Pros: More loot/experience, rewarded for time
Cons: Groups may still only target Rahj, can be easily overdone on the reward

Again these are all just ideas to see what can be done to help prevent group arguments and/or get the loot that isn't being gotten out.

Edited by Hyto on 3/15/2011 10:03 PM PDT
86 Dwarf Shaman
10760
about 98% of the time, people want to just skip to Rajh.

Have you considered that if 98 percent of the people do it that way, Blizzard may not quite want to remove that possibility?
90 Pandaren Rogue
15095
I like optional bosses, personally. I always ask if anyone needs any of the loot (I post the loot dropped), if yes, do it, if no, skip it. As a Tank Warr and a Healer, I have a lot of say on what we do.


All 5 members ought to have equal say in what goals a group sets to accomplish.
85 Draenei Warrior
8580
03/15/2011 7:10 PMPosted by Lylirra
Perhaps in the next patch you could possibly set it up so you can't just skip to the last boss and you have to complete the other 3 first?


In retrospect, we feel that it may have been better to require players to kill all four of the "top" bosses -- Isiset, Ammunae, Setesh, and Rajh -- to get credit for their random Heroic dungeon rewards (instead of just Rajh). While we don't yet know if retrofitting the dungeon or the random dungeon reward requirements is the best course of action, we've learned a lot from watching groups, reading your feedback, and just playing ourselves.


Just as a thought and compromise, instead of Just Rahj would it be a possible solution to require any 2 of the top bosses to be cleared? I ask because a require kill for the Heroic moving from 3 to 6 changes the minimum time to change rather drastically. Acknowledging that perhaps having 1 (anyone of them) as a dedicated required kill tips the scale for those who need loot from the others (the Blood of Issest come to mind as does the Slashing Thorns Thrown weapon for Rogues).

I simply do not know if this change would be possible given the coding, removing a set boss for a clear and making it a combination requirement that has no 1 definitive end. That said if it is in fact possible I do believe it to be a Viable alternative. Those who NEED a specific piece off of a specific boss of the 4 would have their say and should no person either particularly mind which boss is downed for credit it would work out. Further adding a 2 boss minimum for the top is reasonable. A 3 boss dungeon, any 3 boss dungeon (I am looking at you Azjol-Nerub), is great for a fast kill run for points but with so many options available it does compound the risk of screwing with someone in a random group. 4 Bosses with a truly minimum about of trash between each of these particular bosses I find perfectly manageable without making the Heroic a true labor. Also as well the odds of any given group even in dungeon finder needing more than 2 of those bosses downed would be slim.
85 Worgen Warrior
9490
I think one possible solution that could be looked into is awarding valor per boss in the instance for the daily random heroic. Just divide the valor per boss capping at 70 per day. IE Halls of origination has 7 bosses , make each worth 10 valor points. In the case of vortex pinnacle with 3 bosses, make it 23,23,24.

I think this would eliminate a lot of the headaches where one person is kicked in favor of a guild member etc upon reaching the last boss. Or eliminate some of the hardship of joining three fail groups in a row only to run out of time and not receive your valor for the day, because player needs to go to work or whatever the reason.

I do think the pug buff was a nice addition, and glad to know the wow team is always working hard to make the best game possible.

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