Heroic Halls of Origination

85 Orc Death Knight
5990
Because, my 5 minutes of spare time are FAR more valuable than your increasing average ilvl.


/sarcasm off
4 Blood Elf Paladin
0


I. Like. Playing. Alone.


So play alone? If playing alone is your thing then why are you grouping up for a dungeon that requires you to play with others in the first place?
85 Orc Death Knight
5990
if we have to do all 4 bosses to get credit then you can expect more tanks just leaving the group if that pops as the random of the day and so longer queues for everyone

as the tank we have the power.


You're also a whiny baby.
100 Night Elf Warrior
12900
And this is the problem with the pugging system in the first place look at all of these arguments. Why bother playing a game if you aren't going to play the game as a whole? Also Blizzards own blog said these dungeons were set up to help people who were carried in wotlk learn how to raid properly. How is skipping bosses going to help that? Other then people have no patience and just like they said Wotlk was too easy and made everyone want everything right now. One wipe in a raid pug and 5 people leave. This kind of thing is what made me quit WoW foe over 2 months before the expansion. I have 2 tanks and I always killed every boss for everyone whether it was pug or guild. All people seem to care about anymore is gear and themselves. That is really sad and I hope you do make them require to kill more bosses just so they can learn the virtue of patience. And to be honest I have run the heroics faster in pugs. What I did not appreciate was being booted after we 4 manned the first boss in a heroic for no reason whatsoever so they could bring in someone they knew or they looked it up and saw I could roll on the orb or who knows why. Got me saved when I had qued specific for cata hero achievement and I could not even finish. I know there have been some hotfixes for that but in all honesty in some ways I think lfg crossrealm should be taken out all together. People going in that are all from one guild and the same realm and pulling entire mobs into the group and then leaving and garbage like that? I know it makes it so people get to do more heroics and all but really. There are a lot more issues with pug randoms than just the arguement of what boss to kill.
85 Draenei Paladin
3415



This would be fail. Example 1: I'm a tank, I insta queue. I queue for daily, I pop HoO, I have to kill 7 bosses you say? Hell no. I leave. I re-queue later, get GB, 3 bosses? More like it.


grim batol is 4 unless you fail and cant run away from fires and blame it on everyone else when the group blows up (figuratively and litterally)


Really it's only 2 you can skip Umbriss nd Dragha.
Edited by Niya on 3/16/2011 1:54 AM PDT
85 Worgen Priest
3180
I agree, I am so fustrated when groups skip the bosses because I need the JPs and gear badly. But if I was geared I would probably want to skip them to save him and be less stressed. Either side has very solid reasoning.

I kinda like the idea of making "optional bosses" not required for the completion, but allow them to offer more unique gear drops. Perhaps BoE blues or gold drops on top of their regular loot could be an idea?
90 Human Warlock
16930
03/15/2011 7:10 PMPosted by Lylirra
Heroic Halls of Origination is a good example of where optional bosses can cause conflicts. In retrospect, we feel that it may have been better to require players to kill all four of the "top" bosses -- Isiset, Ammunae, Setesh, and Rajh -- to get credit for their random Heroic dungeon rewards (instead of just Rajh). While we don't yet know if retrofitting the dungeon or the random dungeon reward requirements is the best course of action, we've learned a lot from watching groups, reading your feedback, and just playing ourselves. We’re definitely keeping those lessons in mind as we develop future content and if we do make any changes, we'll be sure to let you know.


Halls of Origination is a boss heavy instance, and at this point a lot of players want to get in and out since they don't need the loot or the JP. Adding more restrictions will just make it feel like a long slog like Oculus was in Wrath, though for slightly different reasons.

HoO would be better off being split into 2 instances before you make all but 1 boss mandatory.
87 Draenei Paladin
10190
OP - I've been following your thread for a while. All I can say is - have you taken a step back and listened to yourself?

You play an MMO, are part of a guild yet refuse to run with anyone that you know because you prefer 'solo' play. Well that is fine. You queue with four random strangers but this is not enough for you. You then commence to say that all bosses should be done because that is what you want right now because you need gear and won't use the obvious means to get it - i.e. queue with people you know to ensure the bosses you need are downed.

In six months you won't want to do all 7 bosses if you get H HOO for your daily random. You are only incensed about it now because you want gear and are using the guise of helping others gear up in order to sound more altruistic.

You talk about how much time and effort Blizz put into these bosses, yet they CHOSE to make them optional. That's right. It wasn't the players, but the devs who decided that we didn't have to kill everything in all dungeons.

And before you start in on me, when I was gearing this Pally up for tanking heroic there were only two 333 tanking bracers that dropped in-game, and both were in HOO.

I have had extremely painful groups in H HOO. You may not understand this but there are several bosses in there that are a DPS race. The second boss, in the Hall of Lights actually puts a debuff on the group that stacks, if he takes too long to go down, he pretty much can two-shot the tank. Setesh is a nightmare if you don't have the DPS. All of the bosses require the group to be aware and constantly moving out of things, which seems to be a hardship for a lot of PuGs.

Looking at the fact that many of my groups struggle with the Hall of Lights boss, why in my right mind would I want to clear the whole instance? There have been times when someone asks for a boss because of loot and I gladly go do it, or at least drag the group through the encounter (I've had a couple of times where on Rajh only me and the healer were left at the end because the DPS could not move out of the fire at all, to give an example) but I won't just run off and clear the whole thing for jp.

Not everyone wants what you want. Stop trying to say we need this change as though you speak for the majority. You don't.
100 Human Rogue
7720
I am really getting tired of the game trying to police people's behavior.

Forcing players to be nice does as much to diminish the product as a social game as anything else. Most of the time, if someone asks the group to kill an extra boss for a drop they need, they do it. In fact, I have never seen a group where that was not the case, but I am sure it happens. That is what happens in any social medium; sometimes people are mean. But if you don't let people make decisions, why am I doing a run with 4 people instead of 4 A.I. controlled N.P.C.s like a bioware game?

As for the OP's concern, there is a difference between asking for 3 additional really annoying bosses each with their own trash and one. Part of the social mechanic is realizing when you are inconveniencing people more than you should. I don't know the people, but I am willing to bet if he asked for one more boss, they would have gone for it.
23 Orc Hunter
5875
I also would like to, while we are talking about instance design, take a moment to bring up how I feel that we took 1 step forward and 2 steps back this x-pack.

The step forward was that the instances are not utter pushovers like LK. The two steps back were an overload of annoying mechanics and instance design.

Sure I'll admit that at times when I zoned into Occ in LK I would leave. And a few other places could get annoying either via length or mechanics. But nothing on the level that I feel we are at in Cata right now.

I just ran the heroic Deadmines and as soon as I zoned in I wanted to leave. In fact two of our party did once they saw where we were. But we ran it, finished it without wipes but I did not like any part of it. Between the fact I can't zoom my camera out enough to see anything that well, or the fact that if I want to turn the unit frames on the yellow (barrels and monkeys) block everything I'm trying to see, or the mobs that hop around or jump behind me, or the boss that nobody wants to run the robot on and then when I'm tanking him has what is no more than a spaz out mechanic, and I could go on.

And Deadmines is not the only one. In fact having gotten a few of my fleet to 85 and having run everything now a number of times I hate them all. And that is when I have a group that is good! Nevermind the self important tanks, the annoyed at having to wait 40m+ in the queue DPS, the healers who will pull for me at 1/3 mana as if I'm supposed to have their cooldowns listed on my screen. No sir, I don't like it.

To me there is hard and there is annoying. TBC heroics were hard. In fact when TBC came out they were flat out over-tuned and also had a lot of annoying things going on. But that is excusable. Heroics were new and Blizzard eventually tuned them pretty well while limiting the annoying factor.

But you are now on your 3rd generation of heroics and we are here? You need to do better Blizzard.
85 Human Paladin
5085
03/16/2011 12:21 AMPosted by Marima
There's nothing I can think of off the top of my head from the Optional Bosses that you can't just get elsewhere.


jps and "off the top of my head" for healers bis healing mace before raiding from one of them. bis dps ring off another. im sure there is more in halls.

of course if you dont care about hitting caps or having spirit OR care about other people (and if you dont why the hell are you even playing a social multiplayer game?!?) then yah there is absolutely nothing from those bosses
86 Gnome Mage
8805
03/16/2011 1:17 AMPosted by Akaronia
I have 2 tanks and I always killed every boss for everyone whether it was pug or guild.

I hope by this you mean you go for killing the bosses if someone needs them. Otherwise, you are the type of tank I hate being in a random with. :P
86 Gnome Mage
8805
03/16/2011 3:48 AMPosted by Towelen
There's nothing I can think of off the top of my head from the Optional Bosses that you can't just get elsewhere.


jps and "off the top of my head" for healers bis healing mace before raiding from one of them. bis dps ring off another. im sure there is more in halls.

of course if you dont care about hitting caps or having spirit OR care about other people (and if you dont why the hell are you even playing a social multiplayer game?!?) then yah there is absolutely nothing from those bosses

Is getting 4 other people to do optional bosses with you difficult? If everyone in your group wants to do it, there's no problem. If only you want to do it and nobody else does, then find another group!
85 Human Death Knight
5040
I really liked the idea of having random bosses, or having the "final" boss be a different one each time. It would also be cool to have a random quest or something....anything to make the daily VP grind more interesting or unpredictable would be wonderful.

I feel like heroics should be hard but not time consuming for the sake of being time consuming. 30 minutes feels fine for a heroic..maybe 45 if it is relatively new content. But the fact that a geared group of awesome players still have to spend 45 minutes in something like Deadmines or HoO (if you have to do all the bosses) is kind of ridiculous IMO.

Maybe they should make it like PVP where you have a weekly limit on your VP you can get from heroics so we can only grind a certain amount and then after that, you are done for the week. It would remove some people from the queue, but it would also cause less burnout from the whole "I need to do a heroic every day to stay competitive" thing.
85 Human Paladin
5085
03/16/2011 3:57 AMPosted by Midgie


jps and "off the top of my head" for healers bis healing mace before raiding from one of them. bis dps ring off another. im sure there is more in halls.

of course if you dont care about hitting caps or having spirit OR care about other people (and if you dont why the hell are you even playing a social multiplayer game?!?) then yah there is absolutely nothing from those bosses

Is getting 4 other people to do optional bosses with you difficult? If everyone in your group wants to do it, there's no problem. If only you want to do it and nobody else does, then find another group!


yep, not arguing that.
its also not hard for a tank to get a group either for 15 min VP runs. everyone needs something. its when you start to pick an choose who and why you want to spend an extra 5 minutes of your time helping that things go to hell when using the lfd tool. most tanks dont even speak up when asked and simply run to the last boss and pull.

finding another group as a dps results in nothing getting accomplished because of 2 hour waits once your deserter gets factored in. so as much and as easy as "find another group" sounds. its not as simple in practice.

when i tank i make a point to ask right off the bat if we need a full, partial or quick run.
i can find group like nothing when i tank, i dont need anything but vps, but im not going to waste peoples time by running to the last boss if they need something thats only going to tak 5 to 10 minutes vs them getting saved for the day or a nearly up to 2 hour q time to get back in.

they same argument can be used right back to people who only need vp. if all you want is vps get your own group and stop using the lfd tool if you are only there to use people.
85 Tauren Paladin
3560
I just dinged 85 last night and my first Dungeon - not heroic - was Halls of Origination - I asked the tank kindly if we could do some of the other bosses because the rest of the group and myself were fresh 85s and he simply remarked with -

"Then why arent you tanking - Tanks always lead the way"

So then - I let him get tornado torched while I went down the elevator with the rest of the group - then he tried to group kick me - it failed - then we all group kicked him.
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