Heroic Halls of Origination

90 Undead Priest
13785
The short-sightedness in this thread is stunning. We're going to be farming these dungeons for valor for the next two years. Do you really want to be stuck killing those optional bossses every time you get HoO/TotT/BRC for the next two years just for the sake of a few blues that will be obsolete in 4.1/4.2/when you start clearing raid content, and even now are at best marginally better than gear available elsewhere?
86 Gnome Mage
8805
03/16/2011 4:11 AMPosted by Numerodos
I really liked the idea of having random bosses, or having the "final" boss be a different one each time.

Me too! I saw that and thought it'd be neat.

03/16/2011 4:11 AMPosted by Towelen
they same argument can be used right back to people who only need vp. if all you want is vps get your own group and stop using the lfd tool if you are only there to use people.

Because the people who want their VP aren't the ones complaining about the dungeon. :P Anyway, my stance is always go with the majority. If someone (i.e. the tank, generally) wants otherwise, I'll just leave the group and find another one. Obviously, I would have a 40 min queue again, but if I wanted an instant, I'd play my tank. There's just the hard truth in this situation.
85 Human Paladin
5085
03/16/2011 4:17 AMPosted by Braymon
The short-sightedness in this thread is stunning. We're going to be farming these dungeons for valor for the next two years. Do you really want to be stuck killing those optional bossses every time you get HoO/TotT/BRC for the next two years just for the sake of a few blues that will be obsolete in 4.1/4.2/when you start clearing raid content, and even now are at best marginally better than gear available elsewhere?


not everyone runs raid content.

and to the poster above. dont q up if you dont have time to run an instance.
86 Gnome Mage
8805
not everyone runs raid content.

and to the poster above. dont q up if you dont have time to run an instance.

Or, you could just accept that the instance has optional bosses and be on your way. So you plan on quitting the game after you get your heroic gear? Then why do you even care what happens to the heroic?
100 Human Warrior
17305
I apologize if this was already mentioned, I'll admit that I did not read all of the previous pages.

In another post someone requested the ability to farm VP from heroics up to the weekly cap. While I do not necessarily agree with this, and I am sure that others would outright hate the idea, it does bring up an interesting option.

What if the random dungeons distributed VP from all of the bosses, not just a specific one? I don't mean divide the 70 VP accross the bosses, but if the random gave 20VP from every boss, people would be excited to see H HoO, not dread it.

And IF (big IF there btw) someone at blizz decides it to be a good idea to allow people to farm VP up to the weekly cap from random heroics, it would certainly help if each boss dropped points.
85 Human Paladin
5085
not everyone runs raid content.

and to the poster above. dont q up if you dont have time to run an instance.

Or, you could just accept that the instance has optional bosses and be on your way. So you plan on quitting the game after you get your heroic gear? Then why do you even care what happens to the heroic?


just counter pointing people arguments for not wanting to do anything but what they need.

as you can see, the "i want want i want tude" works right back in reverse
part of why the wow community is crap atm
86 Gnome Mage
8805
03/16/2011 4:24 AMPosted by Aaronhil
What if the random dungeons distributed VP from all of the bosses, not just a specific one? I don't mean divide the 70 VP accross the bosses, but if the random gave 20VP from every boss, people would be excited to see H HoO, not dread it.

If this were the case, the bosses would have to have 70 VP divided across all of them.. otherwise you could obtain a different amount of VP from every random. In which case... people would still want to do instances with less bosses.
86 Gnome Mage
8805
as you can see, the "i want want i want tude" works right back in reverse
part of why the wow community is crap atm

You mean the "I want to have to kill all 7 bosses in this heroic!" attitude? I can clearly see where you're coming from.
85 Human Paladin
5085
as you can see, the "i want want i want tude" works right back in reverse
part of why the wow community is crap atm

You mean the "I want to have to kill all 7 bosses in this heroic!" attitude? I can clearly see where you're coming from.


its not even that. clearly you haven't attempted to pug on server as a dps class since lfd was introduced. its doesnt work. nobody pugs on server anymore, with the exception of if you are spec'd tank.

im not saying "yo do every boss because they are there!"
im saying dont use the lfd tool if you are only interested in serving yourself. stop putting 4 other potential people out.

i dont want to kill all the bosses every time either, but if i dont go into a random arrangement with preconceived notions that ill be in and out and thats how its going to be because that how i would like it.

the biggest issue at the heart of all this is the lfd tool. it leads to issues such as this. as it is right now you never know what your are getting into.
Edited by Towelen on 3/16/2011 4:37 AM PDT
85 Night Elf Priest
7285
we've learned a lot from watching groups


I got a shiver. I swear I did...I knew I was being watched!
But seriously, I find it odd that only Terini commented on that.

As to the OP... you want a pug group because you like playing alone and you don't want to 'feel bad' if you have to leave for an emergency? Do you have that many emergencies or do you just leave? You lost a bit of credibility there with me but your post has inspired some interesting ideas.
I'm for the vanity pet, item, mount, etc. It is amazing how many times people will run -anything- just to get something different. It's like nectar to a bee or beer to a frat boy...it calls! (make it a little stuffed Runt pet with a ribbon and Beauty would be in for a very bad time)

The random end boss, no problem there but that only works for the final bosses.

Buffs and Debuffs only work until we can power through them.

Just my two coppers
90 Undead Priest
13785
03/16/2011 4:20 AMPosted by Towelen
not everyone runs raid content.


I said "4.1/4.2/when you start clearing raid content." The slash means "or." ZA and ZG will likely introduce superior alternatives to many of the items dropping from optional bosses, and I strongly suspect that 4.2 will render most or all of the drops from optional bosses in the 5-man heroics obsolete. Possibly excepting the porcelain crab trinket.

Besides, people who don't raid don't really have any compelling need for best-in-slot pre-raid PvE gear in every slot. For that matter, neither do people who do raid, since there's considerable slack in the gear requirements for early normal-mode raid bosses. Really, no one does. It's nice to have, but having a few not-quite-BiS items does not significantly impair anyone's ability to play or enjoy the game.
85 Night Elf Druid
7845
I think the OP has found a way to make me despise this instance even more. The instance itself is really awesome but the length of it is just to much. If those bosses end up mandatory I'll just leave as soon as I zone in.

Maybe if they make those required they can make the halls of light portion and that boss optional. I think that's a fair trade.
85 Dwarf Warrior
5410
Rather than have randoms, just make it so the first instance you run drops VP at the end. Peeps could then queue for whatever they want to run.
90 Human Warlock
8290
Question.

Why are you people obsessed with skipping content even running it in a lfd pug. The rewards for doing it in a guild group are good enough to schedule for. No way you guys are capping your weekly or leveling w/o it.
85 Human Paladin
5085
not everyone runs raid content.


I said "4.1/4.2/when you start clearing raid content." The slash means "or." ZA and ZG will likely introduce superior alternatives to many of the items dropping from optional bosses, and I strongly suspect that 4.2 will render most or all of the drops from optional bosses in the 5-man heroics obsolete. Possibly excepting the porcelain crab trinket.

Besides, people who don't raid don't really have any compelling need for best-in-slot pre-raid PvE gear in every slot. For that matter, neither do people who do raid, since there's considerable slack in the gear requirements for early normal-mode raid bosses. Really, no one does. It's nice to have, but having a few not-quite-BiS items does not significantly impair anyone's ability to play or enjoy the game.


just because someone doesn't raid does not mean they do not want to progress their toons to the best possible outcome they can manage for it. not everyone has the luxury of time like you or i have and progress and part of the accomplishment and reward they get from playing is gearing.

these people also do not care what drops in content patches months away. if they did they would just wait for firelands to drop and pick up there new gear when the jp and valor systems get overhauled.

it has nothing to do "NEEDING" an item to progress further.


Question.

Why are you people obsessed with skipping content even running it in a lfd pug. The rewards for doing it in a guild group are good enough to schedule for. No way you guys are capping your weekly or leveling w/o it.


because ironically its easier then finding a group that wants to. you get the "my guild is a progression guild and doesn't run heroics" excuse yet they will be the first people to tell others to get a guild to run if they want to clear optional bosses.

people just pick the argument that best serves them getting what they want out of random people with no care or worry about stiffing others in the process
Edited by Towelen on 3/16/2011 5:54 AM PDT
85 Undead Rogue
2270
-Be top DPS
-Formally and politely ask leader to do X boss
-Do boss, cash in loot
-"Why do I care"
100 Gnome Warlock
12745
In dungeon like HOO, why can't we make it so two of the 4 last bosses have to be killed to get the random dungeon finder credit?

I know that those 4 bosses all drop nice loot but some ppl run random just to get the daily VP credit too and already have gear better than what the bosses drop so changing HOO to force us to kill all 4 bosses will be overkill.

This will also add to the social aspect of pugging, if you want 2 out of those 4 bosses to be the ones of your choice, be nice to the group and you will get what you want.
100 Night Elf Druid
14220
03/15/2011 7:10 PMPosted by Lylirra
Perhaps in the next patch you could possibly set it up so you can't just skip to the last boss and you have to complete the other 3 first?


We'll need to weigh the value of optional dungeon and raid bosses further before we make any changes. There's good arguments on both sides. On the one hand, optional bosses can be great for keeping dungeons and raids from feeling too linear or formulaic -- and, when done right, they can also give groups a meaningful choice between getting extra loot and completing a run faster. On the other, optional bosses can sometimes create social tension, especially in Dungeon Finder groups, if players disagree whether they should invest the time to fight them.

We know there’s room for improvement, though. For example, we understand that it's probably not the best idea to have optional bosses dropping loot that's BiS. Giving those bosses side-grades (rather than strict upgrades) or similar items could make the "extra loot" vs. "quicker run" decision less stressful. We also feel that optional bosses in general might work better in raids than in dungeons because raids tend to be made up of players who know each other and/or have a strong leader who's empowered to make calls about which bosses to kill.

Heroic Halls of Origination is a good example of where optional bosses can cause conflicts. In retrospect, we feel that it may have been better to require players to kill all four of the "top" bosses -- Isiset, Ammunae, Setesh, and Rajh -- to get credit for their random Heroic dungeon rewards (instead of just Rajh). While we don't yet know if retrofitting the dungeon or the random dungeon reward requirements is the best course of action, we've learned a lot from watching groups, reading your feedback, and just playing ourselves. We’re definitely keeping those lessons in mind as we develop future content and if we do make any changes, we'll be sure to let you know.


This may be the most direct, on point, thorough answer to a forum question I've seen in quite some time. Give this guy a raise!
85 Blood Elf Paladin
7765
Then i'll make more clear...arena points had always been in WoW, badges had all been in WoW, the old Orgrimmar was a apart of WoW, yet all of that was taken out with the come of cataclysm. Nothing is set in stone and if you want me to farm a substitute for the equivalent of Blood of Isiset please tell me where to get one, cause the spirit granted from this trinket is nothing short of amazing for a healer.



Blizzard cannot please everyone and have made the game in which choices can be made by any group on progression. The best thing we can do as players is make suggestions, which may be considered and applied or find an alternative solution to the gear you need in instances. For example you want blood of the isslet so bad but cannot get it cause no one you group with wants to do the other bosses...fine, if everyone wants to just farm VP then do so with them and get yourself the Core of Ripeness Trinket from the VP vendor (1650pts) and you will get a better trinket with more spirit you so desperately crave...PROBLEM SOLVED!
Edited by Onislayer on 3/16/2011 6:31 AM PDT
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