Heroic Halls of Origination

Community Manager
03/13/2011 2:39 PMPosted by Holyprest
Perhaps in the next patch you could possibly set it up so you can't just skip to the last boss and you have to complete the other 3 first?


We'll need to weigh the value of optional dungeon and raid bosses further before we make any changes. There's good arguments on both sides. On the one hand, optional bosses can be great for keeping dungeons and raids from feeling too linear or formulaic -- and, when done right, they can also give groups a meaningful choice between getting extra loot and completing a run faster. On the other, optional bosses can sometimes create social tension, especially in Dungeon Finder groups, if players disagree whether they should invest the time to fight them.

We know there’s room for improvement, though. For example, we understand that it's probably not the best idea to have optional bosses dropping loot that's BiS. Giving those bosses side-grades (rather than strict upgrades) or similar items could make the "extra loot" vs. "quicker run" decision less stressful. We also feel that optional bosses in general might work better in raids than in dungeons because raids tend to be made up of players who know each other and/or have a strong leader who's empowered to make calls about which bosses to kill.

Heroic Halls of Origination is a good example of where optional bosses can cause conflicts. In retrospect, we feel that it may have been better to require players to kill all four of the "top" bosses -- Isiset, Ammunae, Setesh, and Rajh -- to get credit for their random Heroic dungeon rewards (instead of just Rajh). While we don't yet know if retrofitting the dungeon or the random dungeon reward requirements is the best course of action, we've learned a lot from watching groups, reading your feedback, and just playing ourselves. We’re definitely keeping those lessons in mind as we develop future content and if we do make any changes, we'll be sure to let you know.
95 Tauren Druid
10755
word.
85 Gnome Warlock
8300
Just make the random dungeon reward require every boss to be dead. The optional bosses are still optional for anyone who cares about gear rather than their daily valor.
87 Blood Elf Priest
8420
I like optional bosses, personally. I always ask if anyone needs any of the loot (I post the loot dropped), if yes, do it, if no, skip it. As a Tank Warr and a Healer, I have a lot of say on what we do.
85 Human Death Knight
5040
I like being able to skip the bosses at the top...like a lot of other players who have rolled 3 toons to 85, I just want my VP and to get on with my life! I don't think requiring all top bosses would be a good idea. If someone really wants a drop off the other bosses, they should just ask nicely or put together a group of guildies/friends to help them. Either that or these dungeons shouldn't be so long lol. 7 or 8 bosses in a dungeon is too many IMO, 4 seems about right.
1 Queue for Dungeon + All Optional bosses for a Valor Point reward
1 Queue for a Dungeon with only end boss for a Valor Point reward

boom
85 Tauren Druid
5840
03/15/2011 7:14 PMPosted by Lenna
Just make the random dungeon reward require every boss to be dead. The optional bosses are still optional for anyone who cares about gear rather than their daily valor.


This would be fail. Example 1: I'm a tank, I insta queue. I queue for daily, I pop HoO, I have to kill 7 bosses you say? Hell no. I leave. I re-queue later, get GB, 3 bosses? More like it. Example 2: You are a worthless dps, u sat in queue for 45 minutes, you pop HoO. You hate it, but you don't want to stay in queue for another 45 plus 30 so you stay. The tank leaves... you wait 10 minutes for another tank, the tank leaves, you wait 10 mintues for another tank, the tank leaves.... I think you get the picture.

I would however like for there to be more of a variety to which of the 4 you kill for your daily, so you could rotate. Have one boss at random of the 4 be the final boss, and the other 3 side bosses dropping half the loot. I think that would make it a bit more interesting.

Also have killing one of the side bosses add give your group a 30 minute buff of sorts, so that completing all 3 side bosses would make the 4th one a breeze.
60 Orc Rogue
920
perhaps you should just take those 3 bosses out. Then people can't complain about horrible dungeon gear.
85 Night Elf Death Knight
13230
we've learned a lot from watching groups, reading your feedback, and just playing ourselves. We’re definitely keeping those lessons in mind as we develop future content


First of all, I appreciate the response on this topic... and I don't at all mean to be trolling here...

...but the topic of optional bosses was an issue during WotLK as well, and just as prevalent if I recall correctly. Was the development of Cata dungeons already underway while feedback on the LFD tool was coming in? Did the designers think that the Cata dungeons were being created in a way that was going to avoid the issue (and it just didn't turn out that way in the end)?
Edited by Qwyn on 3/15/2011 7:49 PM PDT
30 Blood Elf Paladin
330
Why not randomly rotate the "last boss" as any one of the 4? That way whatever random you get, you do that one...Also, someone mentioned previously about sharing loot table, I think that's not a bad idea either...
85 Gnome Warlock
8300
Just make the random dungeon reward require every boss to be dead. The optional bosses are still optional for anyone who cares about gear rather than their daily valor.


This would be fail. Example 1: I'm a tank, I insta queue. I queue for daily, I pop HoO, I have to kill 7 bosses you say? Hell no. I leave. I re-queue later, get GB, 3 bosses? More like it. Example 2: You are a worthless dps, u sat in queue for 45 minutes, you pop HoO. You hate it, but you don't want to stay in queue for another 45 plus 30 so you stay. The tank leaves... you wait 10 minutes for another tank, the tank leaves, you wait 10 mintues for another tank, the tank leaves.... I think you get the picture.

Then the problem lies with the length of dungeons being too varied. Make em consistent and this wouldn't happen.
Edited by Lenna on 3/15/2011 7:54 PM PDT
86 Dwarf Shaman
10580
The issue is just that if it was required, the dungeon would have to be changed or people would complain nonstop about having to kill 7 bosses to get that dungeon reward compared to 3-5 for most (6 for deadmines, which is widely considered to be too long).
This wouldn't really be an issue if Halls of Origination wasn't such a sprawling, time-wasting mess of a dungeon.

It sure was fun the first time, but it should really be broken into 2 instances. It takes twice as long as any other heroic to do completely, and for people who are there for the VP, that's a kick in the pants every time it comes up.

However, the OP really needs to grasp the idea that he is one out of the five members of a group. If he's going to ask that we understand his point of view, maybe he should consider the points of view of the other 4 members of his party, who don't want to waste time on bosses that have no rewards for them.

Honestly, if they just put gems on the JP vendor, this problem would probably be solved. The current trade goods from JP are way too expensive for what you get, especially the herbs.
91 Human Death Knight
16680
I think they did it best with throne of the tides.

A decent amount of trash and 2 bosses (one gimme and the other a decent fight for all roles). Skip back to the entrance and then down the left path through a gauntlet of hell and down to a decent fight that actually makes DPS work for a change. A decent group can clear it in 20-30 mins (with most other instances pushing 30-45).

I've heard there is another boss in there somewhere...some dopey shaman who got some octopus thing on his head...too bad the hallway he's supposedly down is filled with the trash straight from hell itself.
90 Human Warlock
8290
03/15/2011 7:10 PMPosted by Lylirra
Perhaps in the next patch you could possibly set it up so you can't just skip to the last boss and you have to complete the other 3 first?


We'll need to weigh the value of optional dungeon and raid bosses further before we make any changes. There's good arguments on both sides. On the one hand, optional bosses can be great for keeping dungeons and raids from feeling too linear or formulaic -- and, when done right, they can also give groups a meaningful choice between getting extra loot and completing a run faster. On the other, optional bosses can sometimes create social tension, especially in Dungeon Finder groups, if players disagree whether they should invest the time to fight them.

We know there’s room for improvement, though. For example, we understand that it's probably not the best idea to have optional bosses dropping loot that's BiS. Giving those bosses side-grades (rather than strict upgrades) or similar items could make the "extra loot" vs. "quicker run" decision less stressful. We also feel that optional bosses in general might work better in raids than in dungeons because raids tend to be made up of players who know each other and/or have a strong leader who's empowered to make calls about which bosses to kill.

Heroic Halls of Origination is a good example of where optional bosses can cause conflicts. In retrospect, we feel that it may have been better to require players to kill all four of the "top" bosses -- Isiset, Ammunae, Setesh, and Rajh -- to get credit for their random Heroic dungeon rewards (instead of just Rajh). While we don't yet know if retrofitting the dungeon or the random dungeon reward requirements is the best course of action, we've learned a lot from watching groups, reading your feedback, and just playing ourselves. We’re definitely keeping those lessons in mind as we develop future content and if we do make any changes, we'll be sure to let you know.


I think you're over complicating the issue. The question is simple. Is daily valor and the 359 rewards they let you work towards a good reward fit for killing 3 bosses? The last being the most trivial of the bunch for most of the people involved.

85 Blood Elf Paladin
8995
Heroic Halls of Origination is a good example of where optional bosses can cause conflicts. In retrospect, we feel that it may have been better to require players to kill all four of the "top" bosses -- Isiset, Ammunae, Setesh, and Rajh -- to get credit for their random Heroic dungeon rewards (instead of just Rajh). While we don't yet know if retrofitting the dungeon or the random dungeon reward requirements is the best course of action, we've learned a lot from watching groups, reading your feedback, and just playing ourselves. We’re definitely keeping those lessons in mind as we develop future content and if we do make any changes, we'll be sure to let you know.


Maybe try NOT having 7 bosses in one heroic. Or putting huge amounts of trash before an optional boss (Throne of the Tides).
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