Druids

100 Tauren Druid
14905
If tanking adds are part of the boss fight I think it is fair to bring up for discussion.

My guild is working on H Maloriak as our next kill so that one is fresh on my list. Our DK is dead set that his anti magic abilities on the boss are so strong that he should not do the adds. unfortunately we don't have a shield tank in our make up (10m only 2 tanks) so we run into problems like this with devision of labor.

I think that bears do take more damage on adds and that it should be addresses. Everyone seems to agree that bears are not very good at adds, usually blaming the AOE mitigation, threat or both. I don't think it is right that any tank should be the "add tank" or any tank should be the "you always tank the boss coz you suck on adds".

Considering that 5 man dungeons are basically 90% made up of add packs some work on bear raid add tanking mechanics and threat might go a long way to making 5 mans feel better for druids.
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100 Tauren Druid
14175
Bears are awesome to main tank any boss at the moment. Not including trinkets, you'll have a cool down for each and every crackle on Nef except the last one. If you have the Tol Barad trinket, what's the difference between you and the Dk? Magic damage reduction by 75% every 45 seconds versus a huge resistance increase to the magic damage + 6% passive magic damage reduction + 20% damage reduction on a very short cool down + potentially being able to dodge subsequent melee attacks (with the chance being much higher then that of a Dks).

Our other tank is a warrior. He's consistently on the adds, and I'm on the boss. Our raid leader isn't silly enough to have it the other way around.
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85 Troll Druid
5410
If tanking adds are part of the boss fight I think it is fair to bring up for discussion.

My guild is working on H Maloriak as our next kill so that one is fresh on my list. Our DK is dead set that his anti magic abilities on the boss are so strong that he should not do the adds. unfortunately we don't have a shield tank in our make up (10m only 2 tanks) so we run into problems like this with devision of labor.

I think that bears do take more damage on adds and that it should be addresses. Everyone seems to agree that bears are not very good at adds, usually blaming the AOE mitigation, threat or both. I don't think it is right that any tank should be the "add tank" or any tank should be the "you always tank the boss coz you suck on adds".

Considering that 5 man dungeons are basically 90% made up of add packs some work on bear raid add tanking mechanics and threat might go a long way to making 5 mans feel better for druids.


Well when you guys go in to do him, and adds are running loose and healers are having mana issues because you're constantly having to go into melee to maintain aggro on adds, you let him know that he needs to look at the whole situation. The boss isn't the deadly part of the encounter. Having a druid on that many adds with no way to aggro 3 mobs at once without getting into melee range will be dangerous.
Edited by Warstehdruid on 3/14/2011 6:56 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
GLM
7700
03/14/2011 6:45 PMPosted by Saeilfa
If you have the Tol Barad trinket, what's the difference between you and the Dk?


A trinket slot.
I will hate blizzard if it's going to be the end game trinket for deathwing...

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100 Night Elf Druid
9255
While I haven't looked at any extensive statistics, so correct me if I'm wrong, but feral tank population was behind the other 3 tanks in LK as well. So, the population not being down from LK levels doesn't mean that bears aren't the least common tanks.

As for why there are few bear tanks, all reasons are pure speculation with little evidence to support them. However, I do think that the sorry state of low level bear tanking does directly lead to fewer bear tanks at end game. If someone in your guild tells you they want to roll a tank, and asks for advice on which class to level for tanking, do you recommend levelling as a bear tank? I know that I'm pretty honest about it, don't level as a bear tank, the lack of abilities will prove endlessly frustrating, level as a dps or heals. I actually think the biggest problem with low level bear tanking is not Swipes cd and not being available until 36, I think the problem is Lacerate still not being available until 66. Not having a spammable attack until 66 leaves far too many gcd gaps in the rotation, this, combined with the Swipe CD makes tanking pack of mobs incredibly frustrating, since tab targetting single attacks is only a barely viable option.

It's a fair point that valor point gear isn't all that good for bear tanks. I'll admit to not having looked real closely at the itemization on a lot of the pieces, having long concluded that the 2 piece set bonus is worthless for tanking, meaning I almost certainly wouldn't bother going for the 4 piece.

Yes, my gear is reforged for hit and expertise, and yes, I am running a dps trinket. I tank almost exclusively heroic 5 mans. Since healers have almost no difficulty keeping me up, stacking dodge wasn't proving to be of significant benefit, and getting hit and expertise has made my job that much easier. If I'm tnaking a raid, its easy enough to take 5 minutes to reforge all my gear and swap a trinket.

I do have a question, why do people rate the Bedrock Talisman so badly as a tank trinket? How much physical damage reduction does 1200 armor provide? The dodge boost below 35% health certainly seems a pretty decent proc for a bear tank, at least for fights where the vast magority of the damage is physical. Certainly in a magic damage heavy fight, the trinkets value is really low, but I'm confused as to why people find it to be worthless when looking at it from a physical damage mitigation perspective.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
03/15/2011 12:40 PMPosted by Cyndril
I do have a question, why do people rate the Bedrock Talisman so badly as a tank trinket?

It's not that it's terrible per se, it's that there are a large number of things that are so much better than it. Especially for Druids.
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90 Tauren Druid
6440
Feral tank population almost certainly has next to nothing to do with the factors you mention. In addition, Bears are probably the best tanks on every raid boss but Chimaeron.

Not chim? savage defense absorbs for about 25k hps, and i dodge most of the double strikes. how are we not the best on chim?
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
03/15/2011 1:17 PMPosted by Moobiez
Feral tank population almost certainly has next to nothing to do with the factors you mention. In addition, Bears are probably the best tanks on every raid boss but Chimaeron.

Not chim? savage defense absorbs for about 25k hps, and i dodge most of the double strikes. how are we not the best on chim?

Block is better.
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100 Tauren Druid
14175
Feral tank population almost certainly has next to nothing to do with the factors you mention. In addition, Bears are probably the best tanks on every raid boss but Chimaeron.


Not chim? savage defense absorbs for about 25k hps, and i dodge most of the double strikes. how are we not the best on chim?


Who said that? I'm guessing they don't raid much, cause that's just... silly haha
Edited by Saeilfa on 3/15/2011 1:24 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Druid
9255
See, I actually want to know the numbers to understand why. I understand that agility is great for druid tanks, hence the 380 agility on Fluid Death being really good, however, hit is unnecessary for threat and provide no meaningful increase in survivability. Reforging the hit only gives 128 dodge. So, does 380 Agility and 128 Dodge really provide better mitigation/avoidance than 1285 armor? How does the 963 drodge proc work out as far as damage reduction when its active? Wouldn't this proc be better than say the Mastery proc on Symbiotic Worm at least for druid tanks?
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
03/15/2011 1:56 PMPosted by Cyndril
So, does 380 Agility and 128 Dodge really provide better mitigation/avoidance than 1285 armor?

Yes. Especially after the Armor modifier change.

03/15/2011 1:56 PMPosted by Cyndril
How does the 963 drodge proc work out as far as damage reduction when its active? Wouldn't this proc be better than say the Mastery proc on Symbiotic Worm at least for druid tanks?

The proc looks strong on paper, especially if you expect it to go off every 30 sec every time. However if you add even 5 seconds to that window, its value starts going downhill very fast.

Moreover, the goal should be to avoid getting that low in the first place.
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100 Tauren Druid
14905
380 agility up almost 100% after the first few seconds it totally over powered.

The Hit rating on fluid death is like free itemization / a second trinket because the agility is so good.

Agility gives you dodge (less damage higher SD uptimes), crit (more SD procs) plus 760 AP (increase SD size). Then on top of that you get the higher threat + extra rage (+5 bonus rage on crits)

Unless you need to stack HP for a specific fight (H Chime for eg) Tias grace and fluid death are almost always going to be your best bets for tinkets. Agility is that good.
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100 Night Elf Druid
9255
Like I said, I understand how good agility is, I was really just interested in seeing some numbers. I haven't been able to find any numbers on approximately how much damage 1285 armor mitigates.None of the simulators I've seen are terribly good for figuring out that kind of thing.
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85 Tauren Druid
0
The reason they're not saying how good the armor is relative to the avoidance is that...they don't know. And it's a hard question to answer, since the gain of armor is relative to how much you currently have.

The armor cap against cataclysm raid bosses is 97717.5. The typical armor I'm seeing most bears have is around 45k. That gives just a bit above 58% damage reduction. Adding 1285 armor to that increases your damage reduction to 58.6945%, a gain of almost .7% reduction.

380 agility by itself, without diminishing returns, would give 1.56% dodge. Of course, no one gets that value because of avoidance diminishing returns. With 40% dodge (another estimate for a person, but about right for bears) that 380 agility gives .639% dodge.

So you have to ask yourself - is .69% mitigation worth .64% avoidance? Over time both will prevent about the same amount of damage. The agility is less reduction by itself but also increases crit values and AP, which will mean better SD absorption - though not by a huge deal. Plus it's random, whereas the armor is deterministic.

For most situations they're very, very close. If you have lower armor and higher avoidance, the armor is going to be better more of the time as it will have less diminishing returns and end up being a greater overall reduction to your incoming damage. (while the reduction is linear with respect to the same stat, it is not with respect to other stats). If you have low avoidance and high armor, the agility is going to be better.

Hope that helps. And hope that sheds some light on why Fluid Death isn't necessarily the best thing in the universe and bears should take a good hard look at tanking trinkets sometimes.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
03/15/2011 11:19 PMPosted by Cyndril
Like I said, I understand how good agility is, I was really just interested in seeing some numbers. I haven't been able to find any numbers on approximately how much damage 1285 armor mitigates.None of the simulators I've seen are terribly good for figuring out that kind of thing.


http://theincbear.com/math/bear-mitigation-spreadsheet/

I ran it before a lonnnnnnnnng time ago when putting together my list, and I have no intention of doing so again.

You can check it out for yourself though.
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100 Night Elf Druid
11225
03/16/2011 9:50 AMPosted by Arielle
I ran it before a lonnnnnnnnng time ago when putting together my list, and I have no intention of doing so again.


Would the recent armor buff change things? With the new Cata armor curve, does armor increase, decrease, or stay the same in value as you get more of it?
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85 Night Elf Druid
1690
Leveling from 1 as a feral tank they are terrible.

At 85 and with gear they do well enough. Tanking on my pally is completely different and easier than on my druid. Druids have many variables to contend with, making sure lacerate is up to 3, making sure pulverize is up, keeping Demoralizing Roar up and making sure you mash Mangle when it procs (and it does a lot).

On my paladin I'm mainly hitting HotR, Concs when it is up, and only having to choose WoS or SotR when I get 3 HP. Oh and hitting AS when it's up, but Grand Crusader's proc is so low compared to mangle's you don't even have to pay that much attention to it.
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100 Night Elf Druid
11490
Do we have to work harder? Yes

Is it hard? Not at all.


A clear case of Battered Druid Syndrome.

Now, I'm fairly sure you meant its harder than other tanks but not impossible or all that hard. I'd agree except that as dps has geared up, the situation has gotten worse and I have little interest to even tank with guildies on my bear let alone pugs. Going back to BC style tanking doesn't strike me as fun, especially given weak snap aggro options.
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85 Worgen Druid
4240
I've been playing a bear for about 1 1/2 years now, and I just don't get what people are complaining about. I have no rage issues, I have no single target or AoE threat issues. It all just comes down to if you are willing to adapt to a new tanking style. I honestly think my tanking as got better since thrash. Tab is your best friend as a bear.
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