Druids

90 Tauren Druid
18610
The reason they're not saying how good the armor is relative to the avoidance is that...they don't know. And it's a hard question to answer, since the gain of armor is relative to how much you currently have.

The armor cap against cataclysm raid bosses is 97717.5. The typical armor I'm seeing most bears have is around 45k. That gives just a bit above 58% damage reduction. Adding 1285 armor to that increases your damage reduction to 58.6945%, a gain of almost .7% reduction.

380 agility by itself, without diminishing returns, would give 1.56% dodge. Of course, no one gets that value because of avoidance diminishing returns. With 40% dodge (another estimate for a person, but about right for bears) that 380 agility gives .639% dodge.

So you have to ask yourself - is .69% mitigation worth .64% avoidance? Over time both will prevent about the same amount of damage. The agility is less reduction by itself but also increases crit values and AP, which will mean better SD absorption - though not by a huge deal. Plus it's random, whereas the armor is deterministic.

For most situations they're very, very close. If you have lower armor and higher avoidance, the armor is going to be better more of the time as it will have less diminishing returns and end up being a greater overall reduction to your incoming damage. (while the reduction is linear with respect to the same stat, it is not with respect to other stats). If you have low avoidance and high armor, the agility is going to be better.

Hope that helps. And hope that sheds some light on why Fluid Death isn't necessarily the best thing in the universe and bears should take a good hard look at tanking trinkets sometimes.


This is why Kalon/Fellhoof is my hero. Wish you were still posting as much as you used to on your blog man :(
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03/16/2011 7:48 AMPosted by Fellhoof
So you have to ask yourself - is .69% mitigation worth .64% avoidance? Over time both will prevent about the same amount of damage. T

And in 10 mans(moreso than 25s) tanks often have to interrupt a lot, so until the hit rating req of interrupts change I'll take fluid death on those occasions. And bonus points for added threat and damage. :)
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
And in 10 mans(moreso than 25s) tanks often have to interrupt a lot, so until the hit rating req of interrupts change I'll take fluid death on those occasions. And bonus points for added threat and damage. :)

Only heroic modes and Nef have a "required" interrupt for the tank. Everything else just makes the fight easier.
Edited by Arielle on 3/18/2011 11:49 AM PDT
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100 Night Elf Druid
11030
Only heroic modes and Nef have a "required" interrupt for the tank. Everything else just makes the fight easier.


Theoretically, yes.

In practice, the tank being able to consistently interrupt the boss can easily make the difference between "able to kill boss" and "not able to kill boss" for many groups progressing on many bosses.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
03/18/2011 11:52 AMPosted by Kalisti
Only heroic modes and Nef have a "required" interrupt for the tank. Everything else just makes the fight easier.


Theoretically, yes.

In practice, the tank being able to consistently interrupt the boss can easily make the difference between "able to kill boss" and "not able to kill boss" for many groups progressing on many bosses.

Bosses that can be interrupted:

Tron
Maloriak (x2)
Nef
Halfus
Council
Cho'Gall

Tron's is not deadly, and it will not be the end of the world if you miss one or two.

Maloriak's Arcane storm should be handled by a DPS anyway. And since you only need to interrupt 2/5 and 2/6 summon casts, the chances of that not happening if a tank is interrupting it are practically nil. Even then is better if DPS does it.

The Nef one is vital, yes.

Halfus is also vital, but if you have melee that don't have /focus interrupt macros, tell your Melee to L2P.

Council has two, and only one you can actually do (Feludius (sp?)). It's annoying if you miss one, but not a big deal.

Cho only has one that you can actually worry about (Depravity), and it's not the end of the world if you miss one, since it only affects you anyway if you're doing it right.

So no, there is no difference in practice. If it makes that much of a difference to a raid if you miss a non-vital one, then the problem is with the raid, not with the fact you aren't hit capped.

Discussion is irrelevant after 4.1 anyway.
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100 Night Elf Druid
11030
03/18/2011 12:18 PMPosted by Arielle
Tron's is not deadly, and it will not be the end of the world if you miss one or two.


Generally yes, but when he uses it right after power converter it can be deadly.



Maloriak's Arcane storm should be handled by a DPS anyway. And since you only need to interrupt 2/5 and 2/6 summon casts, the chances of that not happening if a tank is interrupting it are practically nil. Even then is better if DPS does it.


Again generally true, but the interrupts during the green phase are more critical and missing them can cause problems.



03/18/2011 12:18 PMPosted by Arielle
Halfus is also vital, but if you have melee that don't have /focus interrupt macros, tell your Melee to L2P.


As chaotic as the beginning of that fight often is, you can easily run into a situation where a melee goes out of interrupt range to dodge a fireball or something.

03/18/2011 12:18 PMPosted by Arielle
Cho only has one that you can actually worry about (Depravity), and it's not the end of the world if you miss one, since it only affects you anyway if you're doing it right.


A single Depravity can make a different for a group struggling to win the race on the last phase.

03/18/2011 12:18 PMPosted by Arielle
Discussion is irrelevant after 4.1 anyway.


Yup.
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100 Night Elf Druid
11030
03/18/2011 12:40 PMPosted by Tewa
Why wouldn't a tank interrupt? Let the dps focus on their job more. Be a team player, sheesh.


Stupid talents which increase DPS when an interrupt is successful. ;)
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
03/18/2011 12:38 PMPosted by Kalisti
Generally yes, but when he uses it right after power converter it can be deadly.

No it can't. Not unless your healers are fail.

03/18/2011 12:38 PMPosted by Kalisti
Again generally true, but the interrupts during the green phase are more critical and missing them can cause problems.

Summon interrupts during green are irrelevant. If your DPS isn't interrupt arcane storm they're doing it wrong.

03/18/2011 12:38 PMPosted by Kalisti
As chaotic as the beginning of that fight often is, you can easily run into a situation where a melee goes out of interrupt range to dodge a fireball or something.

Not really.

03/18/2011 12:38 PMPosted by Kalisti
A single Depravity can make a different for a group struggling to win the race on the last phase.

Not if it only hits the tank. Which it will, unless your tank is fail.

03/18/2011 12:40 PMPosted by Tewa
Why wouldn't a tank interrupt? Let the dps focus on their job more. Be a team player, sheesh.

Because saving resources for an interrupt is stupid, especially for a class that relies on attacking for mitigation.
Edited by Arielle on 3/18/2011 12:45 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Druid
11030
No it can't. Not unless your healers are fail.


There's your basic problem. You're dividing all players into two categories: fail and perfect. If you're not doing exactly what you should be doing every second of the fight, you're fail and not worthy of consideration. If a problem isn't an issue when everyone is perfect, you don't consider it an issue at all.

In reality, there's a huge area between fail and perfect. This is where most of the raiding playerbase is. For these people, missing an AA at a bad time, or a green phase interrupt, or a depravity can make a big difference.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
03/18/2011 12:58 PMPosted by Kalisti
or a green phase interrupt

I have a very, very, very hard time believing this one. I always miss the green phase summon, 100% of the time, because I'm focussed on putting out AoE dps to kill the adds.

The adds don't actually get out until after the green phase is over, and if there are adds still alive after that green phase (which is the only reason there would be a problem), then your raid's AoE dps needs looking at.

03/18/2011 12:46 PMPosted by Tewa
Arielle, people would be more inclined to listen to what you post if you weren't such an obnoxious jackass when you did it.

I have a low tolerance for stupidity. Mostly inherited from my job, and 2.5 years of raid leading. There are honest mistakes, and just plain ignoring having a "plan b" in case something goes wrong. The latter is where missing an interrupt on anything but Nef wil cause problems for people. I have no sympathy for them.

03/18/2011 12:58 PMPosted by Kalisti
There's your basic problem. You're dividing all players into two categories: fail and perfect. If you're not doing exactly what you should be doing every second of the fight, you're fail and not worthy of consideration. If a problem isn't an issue when everyone is perfect, you don't consider it an issue at all.

I think my standards are just higher. If you can't recover from a missed interrupt on something that will not wipe a raid, then you aren't doing it right. You should probably fix what you aren't doing right, because there will be something later on that you will not be able to recover from if it doesn't go exactly the way you want it (Chimaeron, Atramedes, Al'Akir) to.
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Maloriak's Arcane storm should be handled by a DPS anyway. And since you only need to interrupt 2/5 and 2/6 summon casts, the chances of that not happening if a tank is interrupting it are practically nil. Even then is better if DPS does it.


And you know my raid comp and have experience on Heroic Maloriak? No. So largely it makes sense in my situation to be watching arcane storms (ESPECIALLY DURING RED PHASE IF MY 1 MELEE DPS HAS TO RUN OUT) as one tic during a red phase with our available raid cooldowns can EASILY cause a wipe.

03/18/2011 12:18 PMPosted by Arielle
Halfus is also vital, but if you have melee that don't have /focus interrupt macros, tell your Melee to L2P.

Not really. I've had skull bash misses numerous times on heroic mode and we lived, the nova damage is nothing like Maloriak. And again, we use tanks to interrupt as our one melee dpser is actually offtanking a drake for part of the fight. It's a highly effective way to do it.

03/18/2011 12:43 PMPosted by Arielle
Because saving resources for an interrupt is stupid, especially for a class that relies on attacking for mitigation.

If you have rage issues with a raid boss hitting you, then learn to maul properly.

03/18/2011 12:46 PMPosted by Tewa
Arielle, people would be more inclined to listen to what you post if you weren't such an obnoxious jackass when you did it.

Pretty much.
Edited by Xarnen on 3/18/2011 1:48 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Druid
11030
I think my standards are just higher. If you can't recover from a missed interrupt on something that will not wipe a raid, then you aren't doing it right. You should probably fix what you aren't doing right, because there will be something later on that you will not be able to recover from if it doesn't go exactly the way you want it (Chimaeron, Atramedes, Al'Akir) to.


Yes, your standards are too high for this discussion.

There's a wide spectrum of raid groups, with different levels of experience, gear, competence, composition, coordination, awakeness, seriousness, etc.

Those groups who meet your high standards are working on Nef/heroic modes and will be having problems because, as you admit, missing interrupts can cause big issues there.

Those groups which don't meet your high standards are working on normals and may have problems because missing an interrupt can cause problems for these groups.
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5940
The armor cap against cataclysm raid bosses is 97717.5. The typical armor I'm seeing most bears have is around 45k. That gives just a bit above 58% damage reduction. Adding 1285 armor to that increases your damage reduction to 58.6945%, a gain of almost .7% reduction.

380 agility by itself, without diminishing returns, would give 1.56% dodge. Of course, no one gets that value because of avoidance diminishing returns. With 40% dodge (another estimate for a person, but about right for bears) that 380 agility gives .639% dodge.

So you have to ask yourself - is .69% mitigation worth .64% avoidance? Over time both will prevent about the same amount of damage. The agility is less reduction by itself but also increases crit values and AP, which will mean better SD absorption - though not by a huge deal. Plus it's random, whereas the armor is deterministic.


A couple of things:

Are you assuming that the entirety of the druid's avoidance is getting diminished? In reality, if you're at 40% avoidance, that means that you're at ~15% undiminished avoidance and ~25% diminished avoidance. With that in mind, an extra 1.56% dodge will diminish to about 1% (i.e. it will take you from 40% to 41%).

In addition, looking at raw percentages doesn't give a very good idea of the true value of the stats. Going from 40% to 41% avoidance is a 1.6% damage reduction, and going from 58.0102% to 58.6945% is also going to give a 1.6% damage reduction. And that's only taking into account the dodge you get, not the increased SD shield size and uptime. As far as the SD uptime and shield size go, they are "a huge deal", relatively speaking. Most analyses I have seen indicate that together they contribute about as much of agility's damage reduction as the dodge does, assuming you are able to attack the boss.

You are of course correct that armor has the advantage of not being stochastic, so if you're in a situation where you're worried about spike damage it will potentially be a stronger stat than agility, but in terms of aggregate damage reduction there is no comparison. Agility provides the same returns as armor even if you take into account only half of what it is doing.
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5940
03/18/2011 12:38 PMPosted by Kalisti
A single Depravity can make a different for a group struggling to win the race on the last phase.

Not if it only hits the tank. Which it will, unless your tank is fail.


The tanks can become unhealable too, you realize. This was actually an issue that my group was having before they give DKs free spell hit; I would miss a few interrupts every attempt and I'd often be near 50% when we got to phase 2. Before 4.0.6 I was dead at the end of all our successful kills because I had become unhealable.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
And you know my raid comp and have experience on Heroic Maloriak? No. So largely it makes sense in my situation to be watching arcane storms (ESPECIALLY DURING RED PHASE IF MY 1 MELEE DPS HAS TO RUN OUT) as one tic during a red phase with our available raid cooldowns can EASILY cause a wipe.

Erm, in case you missed it, I have never referred to heroic modes in this discussion. They are an entirely different animal with a huge number of required interrupts for the tank on 10m.

Not really. I've had skull bash misses numerous times on heroic mode and we lived, the nova damage is nothing like Maloriak. And again, we use tanks to interrupt as our one melee dpser is actually offtanking a drake for part of the fight. It's a highly effective way to do it.

Not talking about heroic modes.

03/18/2011 1:46 PMPosted by Xarnen
If you have rage issues with a raid boss hitting you, then learn to maul properly.

Not talking about heroic modes.

The tanks can become unhealable too, you realize. This was actually an issue that my group was having before they give DKs free spell hit; I would miss a few interrupts every attempt and I'd often be near 50% when we got to phase 2. Before 4.0.6 I was dead at the end of all our successful kills because I had become unhealable.

I've yet to reach 100 corruption without my own fails at dodging shadow crashes. I've gotten close a couple of times, but that was due to my own stupidity by standing in black pools, ranged DPS taking forever to kill the add, or ranged DPS not killing blobs.
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