Can we have less winged raids?

85 Night Elf Warrior
2850
I like a Naxxaramas layout, sure it's wings but it isnt just one room for one boss but it was progression, beating one boss then on to the other and so forth. I had lots of fun in Naxx.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5455
Look, I don't know about you guys, but I have to be honest: Blackwing Descent was not terribly interesting from a level design point of view. Nor Bastion of Twilight but slightly better than BWD. I mean, I get that there's a limit on how creative you can make the layout without going overboard especially in this era of the game where no one cares for the big epic sized raids with trash and all that. I get it.

But for the love of god, can we at least do away with the "big center area, 3 wings with 1 room each" raids???

Like come on, ICC had all this promise, then you get to the upper spire....and its just a BIG invisible wall center...with 3 rooms.

Then we get to Blackwing descent....and its 3 rooms. COME ON. Except for the impaled dragons on the ceiling , the place is superbly uninteresting. Walk to the right, 1 room maloriak, walk to the left, 1 room chim, walk some more, 1 room atramedes.

This is terrible dungeon layout. I would prefer hallways to this. Sure its great for Joe Schmo casual who wants a raid buffet line. And you've kidded yourself that the populatoin likes it but some people actualy remembered when raids looked like raids - and not single rooms.

I remember my first step into Sunwell. I was floored with how great it was. Bring back the good level design and stop feeding me Old Country Raid Buffet.


Ulduar was for me the best raid in the last 3 years, and probably one of the top 5 raids in wow, and its winged.

Problemn with raids epicness is not beign winged or not, its design and encounters what make them epic.
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85 Worgen Warrior
7270
03/12/2011 3:09 AMPosted by Zerovii
Hahaha. I always love to thank melee who die for keeping the floor off the tank. :D

New boss mechanic, you need to use the melee corpses so your tank takes less/no damage by standing on them because the floor is lava.


WTB
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85 Human Priest
4560
Also, BWD is barely even winged. Having options to choose bosses doesn't = a different wing. Options are also nice to have.


If I remember correctly, in Karazhan the only boss you had to do to progress was curator all the other encounters could be skipped and done in any order you wished.
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100 Draenei Paladin
6705
Look, I don't know about you guys, but I have to be honest: Blackwing Descent was not terribly interesting from a level design point of view. Nor Bastion of Twilight but slightly better than BWD. I mean, I get that there's a limit on how creative you can make the layout without going overboard especially in this era of the game where no one cares for the big epic sized raids with trash and all that. I get it.

But for the love of god, can we at least do away with the "big center area, 3 wings with 1 room each" raids???

Like come on, ICC had all this promise, then you get to the upper spire....and its just a BIG invisible wall center...with 3 rooms.

Then we get to Blackwing descent....and its 3 rooms. COME ON. Except for the impaled dragons on the ceiling , the place is superbly uninteresting. Walk to the right, 1 room maloriak, walk to the left, 1 room chim, walk some more, 1 room atramedes.

This is terrible dungeon layout. I would prefer hallways to this. Sure its great for Joe Schmo casual who wants a raid buffet line. And you've kidded yourself that the populatoin likes it but some people actualy remembered when raids looked like raids - and not single rooms.

I remember my first step into Sunwell. I was floored with how great it was. Bring back the good level design and stop feeding me Old Country Raid Buffet.


Ulduar was for me the best raid in the last 3 years, and probably one of the top 5 raids in wow, and its winged.

Problemn with raids epicness is not beign winged or not, its design and encounters what make them epic.


Yeah, if you decide to bring back content bring back Yogg and Algalon : ). Algalon is my hero.
Edited by Cipherz on 3/12/2011 6:42 AM PST
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85 Troll Druid
0
Just going to throw this out there, but is still the best raid Karazhan and it's design was a large part of it.
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100 Night Elf Druid
12035
03/12/2011 5:23 AMPosted by Kimjongheal
Also, BWD is barely even winged. Having options to choose bosses doesn't = a different wing. Options are also nice to have.


If I remember correctly, in Karazhan the only boss you had to do to progress was curator all the other encounters could be skipped and done in any order you wished.


Many of the bosses could be skipped, but moroes and the opera event (and lol chess event) were required in order to keep moving through, in addition to curator.

Even though that's the case, it was not usually wise to skip too many, because trash would respawn.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
Ki
3015
So are we to expect this to be a linear type of raid?

Or will it be completely story based and we have choices to make to effect how each encounter is affected? ooh idea there ;)

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85 Undead Priest
8145
I think a large raid where you can mount would be wonderful again, aka not OS RS andToFW but zone type raids like AQ..
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
4000
03/11/2011 9:21 PMPosted by Trillien
Are we allowed to bring melee this time?


Just one. The floor doesn't tank itself.


LOL XD
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90 Draenei Paladin
11140
The issue with ICC wasn't that it was winged, it was when you got to the wings the story of "invading the Lich Kings's stronghold" seemed to vanish until after you beat them.
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100 Draenei Death Knight
10145
Look, I don't know about you guys, but I have to be honest: Blackwing Descent was not terribly interesting from a level design point of view. Nor Bastion of Twilight but slightly better than BWD. I mean, I get that there's a limit on how creative you can make the layout without going overboard especially in this era of the game where no one cares for the big epic sized raids with trash and all that. I get it.

But for the love of god, can we at least do away with the "big center area, 3 wings with 1 room each" raids???

Like come on, ICC had all this promise, then you get to the upper spire....and its just a BIG invisible wall center...with 3 rooms.

Then we get to Blackwing descent....and its 3 rooms. COME ON. Except for the impaled dragons on the ceiling , the place is superbly uninteresting. Walk to the right, 1 room maloriak, walk to the left, 1 room chim, walk some more, 1 room atramedes.

This is terrible dungeon layout. I would prefer hallways to this. Sure its great for Joe Schmo casual who wants a raid buffet line. And you've kidded yourself that the populatoin likes it but some people actualy remembered when raids looked like raids - and not single rooms.

I remember my first step into Sunwell. I was floored with how great it was. Bring back the good level design and stop feeding me Old Country Raid Buffet.


I understand the desire for more original dungeon layouts, but there's also something to remember: the old dungeon layouts could be a serious impediment to getting things done in a time frame that was still fun. There's always going to be those who like to explore, have a knack for memorizing map layouts, etc., but there are also those who aren't talented like that.

Part of the old 40-man raiding makeup that took so long was, at least for bleeding edge who were pushing latest-tier, finding their way around. Finding your way to getting attuned for Molten Core was bad enough without then finding your way around in Molten Core itself. Don't even get me started on how un-fun it was to try to map your way around in Sunken Temple (before its reduction in size) or Blackrock Depths.

I don't object to some raid areas being more complex in their layout, but asking for them all to be changed is a bit much. I personally liked the layout of Icecrown Citadel. It was all about scenery, and was designed to give you a definite sense of physical progression as you defeated all the defenses the Lich King put in your way until you were finally face to face with Arthas himself.

If I were to ask for anything from raid design, it would be more along the lines of wanting to know why a boss is there in the first place. Using ICC as an example, why, exactly, were the Blood Prince Council just standing there in that room? Sure, they were resurrected by the Lich King to stand in the way of the heroes coming against him, but was that it?

Why was Lana'thel just standing there? What was her purpose for being in Icecrown Citadel? Doesn't she have plans of her own, perhaps outside the immediate needs of the Lich King, that she'd likely be out and about working on?

One good thing about Cataclysm quest design is you see the world leaders out and about; it shows they don't just sit in their thronerooms, but they're actively involved in their spheres of influence. Sylvanas Windrunner is out in the wilds of Silverpine Forest, giving a tour of her facilities to Garrosh's representative. Moira Thaurissan has left Blackrock Mountain to represent the Dark Irons in the Council of Three Hammers in Ironforge. Varian Wrynn was at the battle at Icecrown Citadel, and Jaina Proudmoore moved around a lot in Wrath of the Lich King.

I understand from a game mechanics perspective the bosses need to be present so raids can take them down. But there's a story here, and I'd like to know why the boss is just sitting there in that room waiting for 10 or 25 heroes to come beat them to a pulp and take their stuff.
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85 Undead Mage
9455
I really wish I had been around for Ulduar in its heydey. I had more fun doing Ulduar backraiding than I did on ICC progression (because a lot of our guildies had never done ULD, we had an option raid night for it).

Of all the WoW content I've seen, Ulduar had the most epic atmosphere. Everything was huge, you got to drive siege engines/vehicles, there was trash and bosses that hung out on bridges/hallways, it had a gauntlet event, a council, some awesome mechanics to fights, and hard modes that weren't accessed via the raid leader switching difficulty setting but by fulfilling certain conditions. You could skip some bosses and do others, there was an optional heroic-only boss...

WTB more raids like Ulduar. Seriously. I love that raid.
Edited by Mordette on 3/12/2011 9:33 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18685
03/11/2011 8:29 PMPosted by Zujarn
We need more patch 3.2s.


I completely agree.

A lot of end game hardcore raiders may hate ToC 10/25, but as the leader of a normalized raid of working folk I LOVED ToC. It was quick, the difficulty was in line with skill/gear base at the time, and I could get through it without having a panic attack.

I think that's what we're missing right now, a normal easy raid for those of us who aren't in "hardcore" guilds. It feels like there's nowhere for us to go, and that's sad.
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100 Orc Warrior
21365
I wonder if that means the raid is linear or if everything but Ragnaros is open from the start and can be done in any order that you please.
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85 Draenei Shaman
7765
03/11/2011 9:06 PMPosted by Zarhym
A developer working on a particularly awesome Firelands boss encounter today took me on a tour of the dungeon. I think you'll find the layout to be a pleasant change of pace from winged dungeons. Many of the mechanics being worked on that I was shown were quite nifty as well. I'm really excited for this one. ;)


Is the exciting mechanic "LOL raid damage".
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85 Blood Elf Hunter
7970
New mechanic huh? lets see, whats left? OMG NO... it can't be.. Wave raid encounters??? NOOOOOOOOO!!
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