Can we have less winged raids?

90 Blood Elf Paladin
16820
If you're currently 8/12, I think you're doing yourself a disfavor by referring to your guild as casual.

How many guilds are that far? The number must be quite high, but the ratio is probably a little underwhelming.

My guild is currently 3/12. In Wrath we were able to pour through ICC and, eventually, kill the LK. We're not bad players, we just have limited time and a bit lower tolerance for stress. We're not the only guild like this, many guilds are experiencing the same thing right now.

I'm not suggesting that all raids should be easy, that wouldn't be fair. What I AM suggesting is that there should be an entry level raid for guilds such as mine. It doesn't need to be a pushover, but it does need a little easier difficulty curve. Look at Sarth/Naxx in Wrath, Kara in BC. That's what we're missing right now.
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4 Undead Warlock
0
03/11/2011 8:24 PMPosted by Rihana
Sure its great for Joe Schmo casual who wants a raid buffet line.


What an accurate was of describing it.



Trash is boring.

Bosses are fun.


I think that the only way people feel this way is because they just want epics. Up the chance that trash can drop epics (make them lower level if you like) and all of a sudden they'd get much more interesting to most people.

See all the raid trash runs for proof of this.
Edited by Breathless on 3/12/2011 10:23 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5455
03/12/2011 10:14 AMPosted by Kayko
New mechanic huh? lets see, whats left? OMG NO... it can't be.. Wave raid encounters??? NOOOOOOOOO!!


No please, that would mark my wit out, not another wave dungeon/raid, they are not fun.
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85 Human Paladin
6375
OK then just for you firelands is going to be molten core redux. You spend more time on the trash than you do on the bosses.

I'm not even kidding. We had Lucifron down faster than we had some of those core packs.

People are such whiners sometimes.


Oh God don't remind me of the core hound packs... trying to coordinate AoE on those was annoying as hell only then to watch them start to respawn again lol
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5455



Trash is boring.

Bosses are fun.


I think that the only way people feel this way is because they just want epics. Up the chance that trash can drop epics (make them lower level if you like) and all of a sudden they'd get much more interesting to most people.

See all the raid trash runs for proof of this.


Ttrash is boring, no mattter if they drop epic or no. Now, a little trash like in Ulduar is fine, even if they dont drop anything.

A raid with too much trash is boring, doesn't matter they drop or not anything at all.

I feel like the poster you quoted.
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85 Blood Elf Warlock
8160
I have to agree with everything Rihanna said. Raid dungeons are blander than ever. I lost complete interest in raiding due to the 2 trash mobs -> boss model. It feels rushed and I consdiered the entire dungeons, not just the bosses, as the complete raiding experience.

This content fails to fulfill the complete experience for me.
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85 Worgen Druid
8065
I wish raids would take a step back from these epic boss encounters to include something more akin to the HoS endurance challenge or Razorscale is probably a good example too. Where the boss himself isn't overly challenging (in terms of mechanics), but the waves of adds are designed to wear you down, which makes him more difficult in the end.

Some of the hokey mechanics in these raids are getting a little tiresome.

While it's nice that instant kill bosses contain a mechanic in their room to prevent death; it's not really a formula that can be repeated over and over before it gets stale.
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85 Human Warrior
8645
Trash is boring.

Bosses are fun.



Funny...
Karazhan was packed to the brim with trash and it was everyone's favorite raid.
ToC had no trash and it is everyone most hated raid


Karazhan trash was fun, engaging and interesting. It was entertaining to clear, very different, and easy enough so you could enjoy yourself while going through. You could kill it fast enough so that it didn't feel like bosses, but could wipe on it if you were a herpderp.
Karazhan was perfect, even though it was full of trash.

Think of Karazhan: Attumen in stables, Moroes is having dinner, Maiden in a brothel, Opera event... yeah, Curator touring the museum, Nightbane on the rafters, Aran in the library, Illhoof in a demon summoning chamber, Netherspite in observatory, Chess event in game room, Prince melch in twisting nether... ALL these are organic and natural and the layout of the dungeon was strong. It felt like it was real and lived in, and a tower, and bosses were in places they felt natural.

This is why the modern dungeons aren't working. The bosses are designed first, and the dungeon is built around them. Karazhan was clearly done the other way around.

BoT has Halfus at a ledge with dragons... but where is he? Where are those dragons going? Where did they come from? We don't even know where the BoT is... you go through a portal and you are in a hallway.
V&T are two dragons in a room... How did they get there? Where are they?
Cho'gal is in a throne room, presiding over... nothing. Portals summon adds. From where? How do they get out of the BoT?
Throne of Four Winds kind of makes sense, because they are elementals, but that still seems kind of simple.
BWD doesn't technically fit into the mountain. And seems to only be placed there off the balcony, so the vanilla fans have some connection to it.
Magmaw is in fire off a balcony that seems to have no purpose.
Omnitron is a defense system, not even guarding the main entrance. It's off to the side for no other reason so that it is not inconvenient for players.
The bosses from here on, fit in their rooms, but the rooms seem arbitrary and odd.
A Library for Atrimedes filled with gongs specifically designed to give the boss vertigo. The bell makes sense, but why would there be a bell in a library.
A slimey pit for Chimeron. Finkle and the Bile-o-tron. Why would Nefarian keep these things together.
And an alchemy lab for Maloriak (alchemist boss), which doesn't fit in itself, because BWL is essentially a giant alchemy lab. Why didn't he use all that now unused real estate.
The only boss who feels genuine in the instance is Nefarian himself.


i wanted to repost what someone else said with a healthy dose of this.
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85 Draenei Death Knight
11365
How about we get the best of both worlds? People seem to have forgotten the gray area between black and white. We can still have winged dungeons and we can still have hallway dungeons. Make both. The main problem that people came across with hallway dungeons was the trash, which is simple. Just don't make so much trash.

Edit: Or, read the quote from the poster above me. That's a great example of raids then and raids now.
Edited by Joolz on 3/12/2011 11:21 AM PST
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85 Human Paladin
7345
What we need is a raid like ToC AND Kharazan.

Heres my idea:

DotA, the raid.

Players assist waves of friendly npcs in fighting through enemy npcs to kill enemy generals (bosses).

Basically it's a combination of ToC in which the encounters are themselves made up of waves of trash followed by a boss.
After 3 variations of trash and boss, you kill the big bad boss.

This way it feels like instead of waiting around for you to kill them off one by one, the enemy is actually trying to repel the players.

You could also fit in some interesting gimmicks of controlling friendly npcs like on the Kil'jaeden battle, or piloting/assisting vehicles like on the Flame Leviathan and Gunship Battle.
(I personally think the Gunship Battle was one of the funnest encounters of Wrath, although it was pretty easy.)
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14910
A fight is only melee friendly when you can do the fight with melee only. None of the current raids are such that you can do them with melee alone.
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90 Night Elf Druid
8250
03/12/2011 10:21 AMPosted by Walls
If you're currently 8/12, I think you're doing yourself a disfavor by referring to your guild as casual.

casual != skill
Now unless all you do is raid one or two hours a week then okay. Yet if you put in a couple of nights of two hours each, a raid of skilled players can full clear and then do a full clear in three hours total for all raids.

It just all comes down to both individual players skill, how fast they can adapt, and raid synergy. 8/12 is doable by PuGs who know how to play their class well, have experience in those fights and work well as a team. The fact that I am seeing PuGs downing chogal is showing that it is doable for those casuals of who jump on when they want to do PuGs.

From what I hear KJ does have a good amount of quality PuG players, although personally I will say it does have its fair share of those who need quite of bit of hand holding or are better left dead on the floor. I mean how do you fail at ToC, not just a person yet a whole raid get stopped by the first or second boss, seriously how do you fail the raid that was PuGed on day one.
Edited by Noctemtenchi on 3/12/2011 12:15 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
10095
I personally found trash fun, always reminded me of other games where you play through the level with bad guys around and fight a boss at the end.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
Ego
6030
What we need is a raid like ToC AND Kharazan.

Heres my idea:

DotA, the raid.

Players assist waves of friendly npcs in fighting through enemy npcs to kill enemy generals (bosses).

Basically it's a combination of ToC in which the encounters are themselves made up of waves of trash followed by a boss.
After 3 variations of trash and boss, you kill the big bad boss.

This way it feels like instead of waiting around for you to kill them off one by one, the enemy is actually trying to repel the players.

You could also fit in some interesting gimmicks of controlling friendly npcs like on the Kil'jaeden battle, or piloting/assisting vehicles like on the Flame Leviathan and Gunship Battle.
(I personally think the Gunship Battle was one of the funnest encounters of Wrath, although it was pretty easy.)


Soooo Hyjal? Yeah that turned out well /sarcasm
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90 Human Warrior
16790
Soooo Hyjal? Yeah that turned out well /sarcasm


Damn, beaten to it.

Also: SWP, Ulduar, Kara are all instances of good raid design.

ToC, Hyjal, MC are all instances of bad raid design.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
0
I don't like trash, but I don't like winged raids either. BWD looks really nice, but the overall map of it couldn't be anymore bland.

Much like ToC and Cho'gall to Sinestra, I would like to see the raid instance change when a boss dies. Not exactly like the floor falls out, but you go in a room, boss dies and you leave the room and everything has changed outside. I am not talking about phasing either.
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