Can we have less winged raids?

100 Human Mage
17235
I understand from a game mechanics perspective the bosses need to be present so raids can take them down. But there's a story here, and I'd like to know why the boss is just sitting there in that room waiting for 10 or 25 heroes to come beat them to a pulp and take their stuff.


This to me is key to making the raid feel immersive and epic. Ulduar had some bosses that were mysteries but most of them were taken away from the quest zones and kidnapped/corrupted. It made freeing the keepers feel meaningful.

I also enjoy places more when they have decorations instead of catwalks filled with trash. You could literally clear Kara of trash and still feel like that would be a great guild hall. Kara could definitely have done with a lot less trash but it wouldn't lessen the epic nature of that place. The BT courtesan area is another great section where it feels lived in, used.

THe other thing that is key is trash that actually looks like it is fulfilling a purpose rather than just slapped in there as filler just because we have to slow players down or it fills the space. I can't stand 90% of the trash created because it just stands there all doe eyed waiting for adventures to stumble in.

BoT is a start back in the right direction with trash that is patrolling and has some interesting abilities but I'd like to see it go a lot farther. My favorite trash is Shattered Halls - you felt like stuff was coming in response to intruders, and the ZA trash gauntlets for the same reason. The courtesans in BT and the trash in Shadow Lab are good examples of trash that feels like it's doing stuff before you come in and interrupt them. Everything else has just been decoration filler and not worth my time as a player to spend on. I love Ulduar but most of its trash has the same issue.
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03/11/2011 9:06 PMPosted by Zarhym
A developer working on a particularly awesome Firelands boss encounter today took me on a tour of the dungeon. I think you'll find the layout to be a pleasant change of pace from winged dungeons. Many of the mechanics being worked on that I was shown were quite nifty as well. I'm really excited for this one. ;)

Wait, does this mean we can have another completely non-linear raid with a hidden back-end "linear progression" coding that causes a good number of our raiders to be locked out when we don't follow the unguessable "linear" path for that instance?
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5420
There are two really good points made in this thread, imo.

1. Players want to know what the bosses are doing there, why they are such a menace and need to be destroyed.

Good examples: Karazhan, bosses had an emote when you entered their room/started combat, quests throughout the zone to make you feel a part of it. Ulduar, bosses had full questlines beforehand in the leveling zones, and cohesive storielines that didn't seem rushed.

Bad examples: ICC. Aside from the funny voice-acting in the Plague wing i have absolutely no idea why these bosses were bosses. Everyone knows putricide was just made up to be a futurama reference and I don't mind that. Blood wing is the same way. If the Lich King is building an army to take down the world, shouldn't there be an encounter where you fight through waves of the army rather than BQL, Putricide, Rotface, Festergut, and save a green dragon who isn't really in any danger anyway as much as I can tell?

2. It ties into 1. Trash needs to be short and painless once you know it, but also feel like it has a place in the instance. If the bosses have a storyline, the trash can easily fall into it, with idle animations etc.

Good examples: BoT - the elements room. The elements are running wild literally. Kara - the trash all fit into their respective rooms and were doing things before you showed up.

Bad examples: Hyjal, and I only say this because the trash was painful. If you wipe on the last wave you had to do them all over. Find some way to make this more forgiving and I think it's a good example because the Hyjal story from WC3 was amazing.
Edited by Airplanes on 3/12/2011 4:51 PM PST
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85 Draenei Shaman
9640
This "winged" raid formula is what's also called the Scarlet Monastery model. it was the first dungeon to be winged, became a popular model for dungeon designers, and that layout has hardly changed 6 years later.

I honestly want to see more things like MC and Karazhan, or 'x/infinite waves" fights like Hyjal and Shattered Halls. Those dungeon models are hardly used, but they were something different from the same old wing 1 ->wing 2 -> wing 3 -> final boss
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84 Orc Warlock
1380


I'm not suggesting that all raids should be easy, that wouldn't be fair. What I AM suggesting is that there should be an entry level raid for guilds such as mine. It doesn't need to be a pushover, but it does need a little easier difficulty curve. Look at Sarth/Naxx in Wrath, Kara in BC. That's what we're missing right now.


I don't think anyone who actually progressed through Karazhan when it first came out considered it easy by any stretch of the imagination. Most people simply remember how it was after the nerfs and when most raid groups outgeared the instance.

I'm not sure how the normal raids stack up in this expansion since I just came back to the game about 2 months ago but I'd be surprised and somewhat delighted if they are even close to the difficulty that Kara was initially.
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85 Orc Death Knight
7050
03/11/2011 9:08 PMPosted by Streager
A developer working on a particularly awesome Firelands boss encounter today took me on a tour of the dungeon. I think you'll find the layout to be a pleasant change of pace from winged dungeons. Many of the mechanics being worked on that I was shown were quite nifty as well. I'm really excited for this one. ;)


Now is this Elemental Invasion excited.

Or actual excitement?

It's super effective!
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85 Draenei Priest
9160
I dunno, I think it's good that a raid group can decide which boss they want to fight first, based upon their makeup or skills.

Do you wanna try the easy mechanics gearcheck boss first or the more gear-forgiving execution skillcheck fight?

Though yeah, visually, there could be more to current raids.
Edited by Tiakatt on 3/12/2011 4:54 PM PST
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90 Worgen Mage
8720
i like diffrent wings of the same dungeon firelands will probably be broken up into multiple wing tiers but will be more unified in art design unlike the current three raids
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I liked Kara'zhan a lot. Just about all the bosses were optional, each encounter felt unique, had some lore behind it, there were books of lore, you could pick up buff books to help you with certain fights, and the layout felt like the place was enormous, yet we would get the entire place down in 3-4 hours.

I suppose I was spoiled with that place.
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i personally thought the malygos fight was a very dynamic very "boss' feeling fight, the flying dragon part was a bit eh but it was the easiest part of the fight if people werent stupid.

Malygos fight ranks as one of the best fights in WoW imo along with mimiron

Ulduar,karazahn two of the best instances in WoW, reason being they felt like an actual raid/dungeon and it was simply epic.
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85 Goblin Death Knight
10670
my 2cents ..

i think raids should be an epic experience overall. While the fights of the current content at fun (which is highly subjetive, but hell .. i liked most of them as a tank. While over half of icc fights were a completely boredom to tank) ... i think the "epic experience" is non-existent.

like ... not .. one .. single .. bit.

Just a quick sum of the raids i did and how i felt.

- KZ: Imo one of the best wow raids ever ... EVERY SINGLE DAMN ROOM is filled with details, there was a sense of "increasing epicness" from starting in the lowly stables to climb to the final tower to face the final boss in the balcony etc .... 10/10

- Ulduar - 2nd best raid imo .. bosses were fun .. you felt the advance in the instance .. the progress inside etc .. awesome hard modes .. just perfect.

- ZA - 3rd best raid ever ... awesome fast pacing trash (to beat the chest timer) .. trash spawning in front of you with not much time to react .. instance had a very cool design.



Then ICC - .. started in an excellent way .. simply excellent. When i 1st entered that i saw the chilling corridors and the fight happening in the entrance, the barricades etc .. the whole camp outside ... the gun ship .. everything .. my reaction was "wow, this will be THE raid .. this really feels like LK lair" ..

then it was 4 weeks of expectation to realize after saurfang there was 3 halls with random trash tossed around. Theres not even a damn box in the floor .. all it was was a bunch of npcs "waiting" to be ganked. "hey guys, lets stand here looking to each other while those 25 people come to us".


So while BoT and Bwd have fun bosses ... the instances are completely "meh" .. its just a bunch of mobs here and there, 3 chambers for no apparent reason (besides nef thinking "i'll keep chimaeron here, artramedes here, and maloriak there")

theres zero "epic feel" or feeling that you are advancing in the instance .. or even a lore to justify.

What the hell is the lore behind bwd ? Besides nefarian being bored and reviving everyone and their mother .. again.

"hey 24 people .. lets see whats inside there .. ok, theres a room to the left and one to the right ? k lets flip a coin to decide"
"anything unusual guys ?"
"nah just those 2 golens here by the entrance, lets kill them "
*clear both sides*
"lol guys .. remember that gate that was here? for some reason it opened now that we killed the worm and the robots"
"ok .. which way now? flip coin again?"
"ok .. this chimaeron guy is too hard .. lets try something else and get back here later" ...



they did such a hard (and good) job to make the lvling experience to feel epic, dinamic, awesome ..... and the raids are just a bunch of random rooms with some mobs tossed around for no apparent reason.

Ulduar,karazahn two of the best instances in WoW, reason being they felt like an actual raid/dungeon and it was simply epic.


this ... they felt like dungeons. Like actual places the players were "exploring" and advancing ... the feeling of "advance/progress" for me is the key .... those last raid tiers are simply rooms with bosses to collect loot.
Edited by Eflow on 3/12/2011 8:16 PM PST
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85 Goblin Death Knight
10670
There are two really good points made in this thread, imo.

1. Players want to know what the bosses are doing there, why they are such a menace and need to be destroyed.

Good examples: Karazhan, bosses had an emote when you entered their room/started combat, quests throughout the zone to make you feel a part of it. Ulduar, bosses had full questlines beforehand in the leveling zones, and cohesive storielines that didn't seem rushed.

Bad examples: ICC. Aside from the funny voice-acting in the Plague wing i have absolutely no idea why these bosses were bosses. Everyone knows putricide was just made up to be a futurama reference and I don't mind that. Blood wing is the same way. If the Lich King is building an army to take down the world, shouldn't there be an encounter where you fight through waves of the army rather than BQL, Putricide, Rotface, Festergut, and save a green dragon who isn't really in any danger anyway as much as I can tell?

2. It ties into 1. Trash needs to be short and painless once you know it, but also feel like it has a place in the instance. If the bosses have a storyline, the trash can easily fall into it, with idle animations etc.

Good examples: BoT - the elements room. The elements are running wild literally. Kara - the trash all fit into their respective rooms and were doing things before you showed up.

Bad examples: Hyjal, and I only say this because the trash was painful. If you wipe on the last wave you had to do them all over. Find some way to make this more forgiving and I think it's a good example because the Hyjal story from WC3 was amazing.


this made a better summary of ideas i agree.

the only thing i'd add is that one example that i think its horrible for trash .. make it feel pointless grind. Is just the way thats been used the most lately:

A bunch of mobs standing around for no apparent reason.

This. I simply hate this. KZ trash always fitted the "theme" of the room or the boss they were related to. ZA trash was well placed, had meaning (they were actually trying to stop you from progressing) .. there was scouts to deal with, patrols .. you could explode the enviroment for better routes etc.

Then you have something like ICC .. Blood wing trash. Which is just a bunch BEs staring at each other .. not even "ready" to halt your advance .. they are even laughing at eachother jokes and sheeping the other guy ... like a bunch of policeman talking and laughing in a bar while theres 10 people burning a store 50y away.
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85 Undead Priest
6130

Just PLEASE don't force us to do a portion of the raid on the "Firelands Flyers." We enjoy the class we play and work very hard to play it as well as possible, not to ride a mount frantically mashing 4.


They'll change it up, instead of frantically mashing 4, they'll give them abilities that will make you frantically mash 11 then 2, then 11 then 2, then 11, then 2.
Edited by Concillian on 3/12/2011 8:47 PM PST
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85 Undead Priest
6130
i personally thought the malygos fight was a very dynamic very "boss' feeling fight, the flying dragon part was a bit eh but it was the easiest part of the fight if people werent stupid.

Malygos fight ranks as one of the best fights in WoW imo along with mimiron

Ulduar,karazahn two of the best instances in WoW, reason being they felt like an actual raid/dungeon and it was simply epic.


I liked Malygos.

I didn't like the number of successful raiders who could easily handle all previous content and Phase 1 and 2, but had extreme difficulty adapting to flying in 3D space.

I think a lot of these bosses that people have difficulty with are tied to computer performance issues. We had a number of people who were not idiots on other fights but repeatedly and royally screwed us over on Sindragosa, for example. Something about that fight would really hurt marginal computers. I think Malygos was a similar situation.
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85 Undead Priest
7490
03/11/2011 9:39 PMPosted by Airborne


This x500
This X-1,000,000,000 3.2 was terribad. There never was, and never will be a raid as bad as ToC.


You must understand, they of his ilk judge instances by the ammount of positive reinforcement and lack of time actually spent in it when ascertaining their worth.
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Hope the sneaky giant rotating gear door at the uldum-tanaris border will become an ulduar 2.0. That raid was brilliant
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