Holy Paladins in PvP are extemely weak

85 Blood Elf Paladin
5095
Hello, I am a holy paladin on bg9, I hope that the following post shows you that holy paladins need to be buffed in a couple of these categories. This post is rather long, it has 1536 words. But if that's how many words it takes to buff holy pallies, then I don't care.

Abilities lost and abilities gained
From wotlk to cata, we lost sacred shield, divine sacrifice, sacred cleansing, beacon nerfed to 50%, lost 4 secs off of bubble and there's no resists on it anymore, 20% (or 30%, i forgot) off fears, silences, and something else, reduced time on aura mastery on a longer cd, and our freedom is on a longer cd with a shorter duration.

We gained guardian on a long cd, word of glory, rebuke, a mastery which is much worse than other healers, a useless 31 pt talent that we don't even spec into, and a 60% increase in speed for 1/10th of our mana and 3 talent points.

Basically, we lost 4 of our best abilities (reduced time on cc, sacred shield, divine sacrifice, and sacred cleansing), while druids and shamans get a dispel better than ours.

Why hpallies were good in the past
In earlier seasons, we had the advantage over other healers b/c in shorter games we could reduce the most dmg from other party members while maintaining the strongest healing output, and b/c of divine sacrifice and sacred shield and reduced time on cc we could dispel more. In longer games, we were one of the two magic dispellers with better mana efficiency than our priest counterpart, so we could outlast priests. We were the true definition of a support healing class.

Now, our dispel is the worst.
-Priests can dispel 2 magic each time they dispel, so they're spending less mana and time on dispelling cc so the target gets out quicker and the priest stops dispelling.
-Druids have curse attached to their dispel so they can dispel hex and lock curses
-Shamans also have curse attached to their dispel and a 5k heal or so, they can also spam dispel more b/c riptide and earth shield are also healing with their dispel.
-Paladins have the weakest dispel b/c poisons are reapplied almost instantly from rogues and diseases are undispellable from dks. However, we can dispel the disease debuff from spriests which helps a little bit and the slow from ferals but that is also reapplied nearly instantly. Our magic dispel can be spammed the least because we have no proactive healing and we have to spend a lot of globals to heal (that is, when we're actually not cced). A holy shock crit is less healing than one proc of earth shield with one dispel from a resto shaman and the dispel will reduce future need for healing for the rshaman.

Getting cced all day long
We are also very reliant on other classes which shouldn't be the cast because we play with classes that need us because we're a support class. We are the most prone to cc b/c we have the least instant casts and no proactive healing, so putting cc on a paladin has no downside effect. Hoodr (Hoodrych) and others warriors put colossus smash on me when they're not even attacking me. It feels like if the cc has a cooldown then it goes on me, if it's spammable it goes on me until DR, then it used on my partners. All silences are directed at me while all roots are directed on my partners.

Meanwhile, druids can pillar cc better and shapeshift casted pollies/hex's. Shamans can wind shear and grounding totem and pillar cc better. And priests main heals are all on cd or hots so ccing them isn't as effective, thus they're not targetted for cc as much.

CONTINUES ON NEXT POST
Edited by Refugee on 3/20/2011 4:45 PM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5095
Freedom and aura mastery
Paladins used to have the only freedom and aura mastery, but priests got the same one on a shorter cd (ours does affect others but paladins have been very reliant on playing with melee classes and hunters which both have nearly no use for silence immunity). Hunters (altho it was a while back) got their own freedom that is 8 secs glyphed on a 45 sec cooldown. Although theirs is countered by offensive dispel and spellsteal, hunters counter mages while holy paladins do not.

Proactive/Preemptive healing
In wotlk, we had sacred shield. Between sacred shield, hand of sac, and divine sacrifice we had the best proactive healing. Now, we only have hand of sac and we have less dispel protection for it. Hand of sacrifice is nice because it breaks polymorph, scatter --> trap, and blind. Only problem is that hunters and mages can both dispel hand of sacrifice while rogues are usually partnered with a mage, priest, or shaman that can dispel it.

Our cc versus other healers' cc
We are the weakest in this category, we have rebuke which requires us to be in melee range (which makes us more vulnerable to cc) and we have hoj. Hoj is the worst cc of all the healers because it lasts 6 seconds and can be dispelled by all 4 healers.

Hex is longer, on a shorter cd, can be casted at range and only 2 healers can dispel. They also have wind shear which can be used at range)

Fear is on a much shorter cd, and can be used on multiple targets.

Cyclone is undispellable, spammable, usable at range, and you can't heal thru it nor bubble out it. They also have roots which is spammable and usable at range and they can cc 2 targets at the same time by rooting a dps while the healer is cycloned. Just by themselves.

Offensive pressure
Ours is our cc, which is already the worst. Other classes such as shamans and priests have offensive dispel, which is nice. Shaman's isn't nearly as good as priests but they still have the choice to use it and can get nice abilities off such as bop or pws.

Getting trained
When a paladin gets trained, we have holy shock and word of glory to heal ourselves. The rest of our heals we have to fakecast (including the .92 sec divine light proc, very easy to kick). We can do freedom + 60% movement speed increase but that costs 10k mana and we cannot freedom others. If it's stunned, then there goes 10k of your mana. We also have bubble and 20% dmg reduction on a 40 sec cd but both are dispellable. Bubble has no resist protection so it's MD'd before it can be effectively pillared and usually MD'd before GCD comes back up.

Shamans and druids can pillar, 'nuff said. Barkskin can be used while stunned and stoneclaw totem / grounding totem during silence.

Priests have nearly the same healing on themselves when trained as on other people. PWS, POM, renew, their own aura mastery on a 45 sec cd or so. Priests are usually paired with classes like mage and rogue that can cc the people on the priest when they're left alone. They also pop their major defensive cd while in cc.

Our strengths
We have arguably the best mana efficiency, however our games do not last long enough for this to come into play usually. We are too cd reliant to last in the 5-20 mins that reckful talks about.

We have the best healing output when not cced and free to cast, this is AWESOME for 5's. Not so much in 3's where nowadays class have so much cc that they can kill both of your partners even tho the first one tried to pillar for a bit while you're in the longest cc chain of your life.

We have taunt not on a gcd that we could use on pets that are not on passive, gargoyle, snake trap, and mirror images. These pets will break u out of cc, good players will not use mirror images or snake trap and have their pet on passive but it helps a tiny bit that their mirror images are not doing dmg or the snake trap isn't slowing/minor dmg.

Representation
We should be in about 1/4th of high rated teams because we are 1 of 4 healers. We appear to have a higher representation than we actually do because there are paladins that are in full bloodthirsty, sitting on teams, that have already rerolled because they are smart. Yes we do have ret, but druids have feral and boomkin and priests have spriests. Shaman representation should be above 25% because elemental and enhance are not tier 1 specs. We are not nearly in 1 of 4 teams especially as you get higher and higher in the bracket.


TL;DR: Look at holy paladin representation in 3's, now look at the holy paladin buffs for 4.1 (i'll save you time, there is none,there is only a 2k shield extended from 8 secs duration to 15 secs that isn't going to help us, it's more for PvE). Paladins need to be buffed in 4.1 and i'm tired of reading mmo-champion to not see any buffs. In fact, we're getting nerfed b/c mages are getting buffed which will lead to playing more mage teams.
Edited by Refugee on 3/17/2011 2:50 PM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
8560
Sacred cleansing should be capable of offensive dispels

Eye for an eye should have a 33% chance to reflect magical CC mechanics IMO (hex included) in addition to the damage effect.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5095
Sacred cleansing should be capable of offensive dispels

Eye for an eye should have a 33% chance to reflect magical CC mechanics IMO (hex included) in addition to the damage effect.


sacred cleansing was the talent where if you dispelled something, there was a chance it would make 10/20/30% of the spells resist on that target for like 10 secs
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
8560
Yeah, I know what it was... I'm just saying, since resto shamans got your cleanse via that talent, shouldn't you get their purge?
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Yep, we really have nothing going for us, while the most powerful healer (priest) is getting MORE buffs. thank god i have a priest.
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85 Human Paladin
3260
03/17/2011 3:44 PMPosted by Rushan
Yep, we really have nothing going for us, while the most powerful healer (priest) is getting MORE buffs. thank god i have a priest.


I am really tired of all your QQing.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
8560
03/17/2011 3:59 PMPosted by Lumière
Yep, we really have nothing going for us, while the most powerful healer (priest) is getting MORE buffs. thank god i have a priest.


I am really tired of all your QQing.


In all honesty, have you tried a priest?

Snares used to be their only weakness. Now that's gone, so what is their weakness?

I'd love to know, because I cannot find one. Great defensive cooldowns (they stole to aura mastery!), great offensive abilities, and the resilience change was a buff to their mana burn.

They are not as efficient, but who gives a damn about efficiency in 3 minute long fights?
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03/17/2011 4:13 PMPosted by Stabbymcbeal


I am really tired of all your QQing.


In all honesty, have you tried a priest?

Snares used to be their only weakness. Now that's gone, so what is their weakness?

I'd love to know, because I cannot find one. Great defensive cooldowns (they stole to aura mastery!), great offensive abilities, and the resilience change was a buff to their mana burn.

They are not as efficient, but who gives a damn about efficiency in 3 minute long fights?
not to mention shadowfiend fear hymm peels giving me back like 60% of my mana or more.
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03/17/2011 3:59 PMPosted by Lumière
Yep, we really have nothing going for us, while the most powerful healer (priest) is getting MORE buffs. thank god i have a priest.


I am really tired of all your QQing.
QQ eh? mmmmk mr. 1400. maybe you get above 1800 and then you see how ridiculous priests actually are. keep in mind i have no teams cause i havnt touched this character in MONTHS, my last team was dk partner and we steamrolled to 1700. which, while still pathetic is still markedly better than you.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
11650
you're avatar, it is ugly.
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03/17/2011 6:16 PMPosted by Calvinball
you're avatar, it is ugly.
i strike fear into my enemies.
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1 Worgen Warrior
0
this has to be a troll..

No one with 3 interrupts,powerful instants, bop,ds,freedom, and burst offensive power could really think it is weak..could they? god i hope not

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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10920
this has to be a troll..

No one with 3 interrupts,powerful instants, bop,ds,freedom, and burst offensive power could really think it is weak..could they? god i hope not


0/10
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3645
Yea....I feel your pain. Mana burn spams make me a sad panda : (
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
6540
Remind we why Locks got there mana drain removed but priests got theres buffed again?
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86 Human Paladin
9180
Learn how to adapt or re-roll.

Complaining on these forums rarely gets you anywhere.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5095
i was running TSG at 2400 mmr which is very low for my expectations. For comparison, my rshaman with 40k mana hit 2k and then once he hit 60k mana he hit 2.2k rating, i'm still trying to get my resto shaman full bloodthirsty. I have no idea what i'm doing on my resto shaman but i'm still able to hit my full vicious paladin's ratings on him easy even though I'm not yet in full bloodthirsty and have no idea what i'm doing.

Holy Paladins do not have the tools to compete at high ratings because my teammates have to pillar hump if they want to live every time i'm cced while on my rshaman they don't even have to pillar hump when i'm cced due to earth shield and riptide. Getting cced on a rshaman is actually hard to do because between pillaring, wind shear, and grounding totem you can stop all cc. Only time you actually get cced is when it's instant cc --> casted cc.

this has to be a troll..

No one with 3 interrupts,powerful instants, bop,ds,freedom, and burst offensive power could really think it is weak..could they? god i hope not


By the way i'm talking about holy pallies, not ret. Read title. If you're talking about holy pallies, then here's my argument:

My interrupt (read: 1 interrupt, hoj and arcane torrent don't count) require me to be in melee range, this means that any good team will easily poly me, hex, fear, or cyclone me before I even get close.

3 holy shocks and a 3 holy power word of glory are not strong, using only instants I can only do that every 20 seconds and will heal for about 45k if nothing crits. In comparison, a priest can put up a pws on basically like a 13 sec cd that absorbs like 30k. A resto druid can heal with that in 3 lifeblooms over 10 secs, and resto druids are built to cc incoming dmg before they actually need to heal. And on my rshaman, If I do earth shield --> riptide --> unleash elements ---> grounding totem --> 2 sec greater healing wave, I will do about 10k worth of healing from earth shield, 7k from riptide, unleash elements for 5.5k, and my big heal will be between 40k and 60k depending on crits for a grand total of around 62.5-82.5k. I actually have the weakest instant healing because priests have pom, pws, renew; druids have lifeblooms, rejuvenation and regrowth in tree form, and shamans have earth shield, riptide and unleash elements.

Bop and freedom are dispellable by hunters, mages, priests, shamans and to a lesser extent warriors. That's basically every team.

Divine shield is countered by priests and warriors, and lasts 6.5 seconds after the gcd comes back up, that's enough time for 4 flash of lights which will heal for about 80k which is not a lot considering it's my major cd that i'm balanced off of. It's also on a 5 minute cooldown and games at top ratings are meant to last 5-20 mins, holy paladins do not have the tools to compete with other healers for that long.

Paladins have the worst offensive pressure, priests do more dmg and have the choice to do mana burns or offensive dispel which are both awesome. When they do dmg, it's on the shadow school. Druids can cyclone the healer a couple times, skull bash, and bash for a huge cc chain by themselves *while* healing their partners. Rshamans can wind shear which is constant offensive pressure. Paladins only have exorcisms which hit like 3.5k on full resilled targets and it's on the holy tree so if it gets locked out and because we have no proactive healing, they can do counterpressure and possibly score a kill in those 7 seconds which is very easy. So casting exorcisms are usually not much of a choice, we can however do our exorcism and judgement and hammer of wrath for grand total of 10k dmg in 3 globals which is okay but worse than 2 mind sears. So besides that, our offensive pressure comes from our cc which as stated above in my original post, ours is the weakest.



TL;DR: you don't have to listen to me then, just look at holy pally rating representation.
Edited by Refugee on 3/18/2011 9:40 AM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5095
still no buffs.... starting to give up hope
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Im not sure if holly pallys are really that nerf, because they have tools to survive and to heal a lot. But the thing is we dont have the same croud control that the other clases, and it shows a lot on the 2vs2 bracket.

Shamans have their hex. Priest have their fear, mind control. And druid stun, cyclone, roots, and they spam those a lot. What about pallys? a 5 sec stun with a lot of cooldown.

If the enemy knows how to use they CC's you as a pally are in big trouble. And for that i was thinking.. they made paladin's interrupt for all spec (sucky melee range), but how about making repenteance for all specs? its another CC that every pally would give use.
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