Subtlety PvP - Haste Vs. Crit

85 Human Warrior
3545
Title says it all.

Traditional wisdom dictates that Haste is superior to Crit in terms of pure Subtlety DPS, I won't contest that.

However - As a Rogue - Most Arena makeups benefit at least somewhat from the ability to put out controlled burst damage on an on-demand basis; and Crit provides this, arguably more so than Haste.

The DPS benefit from Haste is reported to be substantially higher than Crit (From EJ Subtlety PvE Compendium), however I would "guesstimate" that this difference is less noticeable in short bursts than it would be in a prolonged raid encounter.

Energy regeneration could provide more utility as well.

Is it really just about preference at this point?

Do you go for Crit or Haste? Why? I need some insight.


Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Rogue
Vex
9280
03/23/2011 10:57 PMPosted by Dragonian
However - As a Rogue - Most Arena makeups benefit at least somewhat from the ability to put out controlled burst damage on an on-demand basis; and Crit provides this, arguably more so than Haste.


This is a big part of it. Crit puts out far more performance than Haste, it's even better at energy regen at this point than Haste.

Backstab + Glyph + High Crit = Energy

Let's assume that you can maintain time on target and you have properly positioned yourself behind the target, for sake of plausibility let's say they've been Kidney Shot or some other stun.

With my PVP gear and talents Backstab is sitting pretty with over 60% chance to Crit. Let's say you get 2 Crit in 5 Backstabs, that means in 5 GCDs or 5sec you've gained back 10 energy.

If I were to focus on Haste I'd probably have around 10% or so Haste that's an extra 1 energy/second, or 5 energy in the same space of time. Half the energy, same time.

It's all RNG and averages, in 5 Backstabs I could Crit 5 times or none. But the average energy return is higher during time on target with more Crit Rating to push out more Glyphed Backstab Crits.

Haste also loses value in that if you're being chain CC'd or kited it's easy to energy cap, at which point any extra energy regen from Haste is wasted.

The attack speed increase is similarily devalued , time on target is not guaranteed and Sub is more about control and bursts of damage at the right moment than it is about sustained high levels of damage over time.

Haste is a great stat in PVE since mobs don't actively try to get away from your sources of damage or continuously disrupt your attacks. Players rarely are content to stand in one place while you plant as many consecutive knife blows in their back as you can in as short a time as you are able.

Crit eventually can cap out, and does decrease in value as you approach that point. Where Haste will become more valuable when you can realistically attain higher amounts of it. Between a lack of sufficient volume of Haste and the way fights play out in PVP as a stat it just doesn't live up to the performance of Crit stacking.
Edited by Caera on 3/23/2011 11:19 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Rogue
10935
Title says it all.

The DPS benefit from Haste is reported to be substantially higher than Crit (From EJ Subtlety PvE Compendium), however I would "guesstimate" that this difference is less noticeable in short bursts than it would be in a prolonged raid encounter.


thats based on pve

http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/185898-guide-the-art-of-roguecraft/ is a better place to look for pvp info
Reply Quote
People like to argue as sub, haste is "better" because it will allow you to peel more effectively.

TLDR crit.
Because no good rogue will allow himself to run out of energy.




When gear gets to ICC-Mode and you get ~70+% haste, yeah, it might be a no brainier.
Might.
Reply Quote
85 Undead Rogue
6700
I have oftened wondered this myself... but i've always speculated crit to be better based on the math. Good point with the Glyph energy regain too... i never thought of that lol. Anyway that brings me to my point. If haste is considered not that great then should I avoid Hurricane enchant? i did the math and even if it double procs that puts me at around 11% haste in total. Keep in mind im thinking from pvp POV. So does this mean that the heals from Mending or lets say the dmg from avalanc. shoot even the old enchants like berserk or mongoose would be a better choice? I've often debated this with a few buddies but we couldn't come to an agreement. Maybe one of you guys could lend some assistance?
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Rogue
6770
PvP crit all the way, why are you even debating this?
Reply Quote
85 Human Warrior
1860
Because people like to necro >.>
Reply Quote
85 Undead Rogue
6700
viiss i realize this... but im trying to find an enchant for my weapon. If haste is pointless then why bother with hurricane.... my question is, "is there a much better enchant to use?" such as mending for the heals, ava for the extra dmg, or even wrath enchants like beserker or a possible mongoose for the 120 agi.
Reply Quote
haste is not pointless at all, hurricane is a perfectly viable enchant until you can afford landslide. don't listen to the naysayers who denounce haste, the stat really is not bad at all for any kind of rogue and the difference between reforging crit or reforging haste is not even noticeable
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Rogue
Vex
9280
There was a thread on PVP weapon enchants the other day. Gist of it, avalanche is behind, Mending is about 50-100HPS (I've seen outside average numbers saying 200HPS), Berserking pulls ahead during Shadowdance - but good luck timing all your ShDs with PPM weapon chant procs, and Hurricane is better in general (little extra energy, mostly weapon speed increase coupling with SnD), don't even look at Mongoose.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Rogue
6770
04/06/2011 11:28 PMPosted by Gustive
viiss i realize this... but im trying to find an enchant for my weapon. If haste is pointless then why bother with hurricane.... my question is, "is there a much better enchant to use?" such as mending for the heals, ava for the extra dmg, or even wrath enchants like beserker or a possible mongoose for the 120 agi.


Haste is not useless, I never said it was, I said crit was better.. Which it is. And haste is the best weapon enchant besides Landslide.
Reply Quote
85 Undead Rogue
6700
Im not calling you out or even accussing you of saying something like that sorry for the confusion, i was just going off of what the previous guy above us said. Back to my question.... The math never lies, the extra haste I get from Hurricane is 900 (because of the double proc, it happens often) and even then that alone puts me roughly at 10% haste, according to the math that will only give me 1 energy more per second. So instead of 10 im getting 11/s. In pvp is that 1 more energy going to make that much of a difference. Plus not to mention cc time which gives plenty of time to regain max energy anyway and lets not forget the annoying early procs when you already have max energy considering that also happens often, then it goes on a ICD for either spell or the melee proc making the haste bonus a waste for most of the fight. That's why i was curious if the hurricane proc bonus is even worth it in pvp. To help clearfy things up im running Subetly pvp and can't afford Landslide at the moment.
Edited by Gustive on 4/7/2011 12:43 AM PDT
Reply Quote
85 Undead Rogue
6700
I know a lot of rogues have this enchant (hurricane), but i feel as though they only have it because they are following other rogues and don't understand the math. If anyone can prove me wrong as far as numbers go, then good on them, because that is what im looking for. otherwise im at a lost when trying to see why a lot of rogues are picking this enchant up. Is it because it's versitle and can be used in pvp and pve? Someone please discredit my theories with logic and possible facts so that i don't have to spend money on a different enchant.
Edited by Gustive on 4/7/2011 12:44 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Because Hurricane still slightly increases your damage being from haste affects melee swing and that 1energy per sec still better than lets say mendings weaker heal.
Reply Quote
85 Goblin Rogue
4410
Sub pvp revolves around crit, honesty our bread and butter right now is recuperate, (reduced damage, decent life gain, instant 12 energy) you should be stacking crit to buff your burst because without, rogues are useless.
Reply Quote
85 Undead Rogue
7490
Go crit. Haste would be better if we had 100% uptime on targets.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]