Calling druid tanks bad?

85 Tauren Druid
8960
For Savage Defense the change we're thinking about would probably be instead of reducing the next physical attack for X damage, it would instead absorb X damage for some duration. Big single target hits would probably drop the shield either way, but all the dinkier hits from pack pulls would be mitigated rather well. It's probably something you'll see fleshed out on the PTR.


Please, please, please do not make this change; it's just another homogenization of classes in this game.

Not really. Most people already assume it's an absorb shield. I'm all for classes being different, but I'd prefer it was done in interesting ways (like letting my damn death knight keep his ghoul rez. If you're going to give out combat rez candy and force it down my throat, let me keep the 'fun, useless' version in addition to the "boring, useful" version.)

Changing SD to absorb instead of a damage reducer is not class homogenization, it's an obvious move that should have been implemented a few patches ago.

Why do I sound so angry/bitter today? I'm not even. Huh!




03/29/2011 8:44 AMPosted by Ahti
They're one step away from porting Death Strike over for bears as Death Paw. Why even have classes anymore!!1!

I prefer death maul.
Edited by Bovie on 3/29/2011 8:54 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
03/29/2011 8:43 AMPosted by Subditus
1. Thorns in Bear form when out of combat too please.

There is even more reason to say "No" to this after 4.1 than there was before.

There are many other things so far ahead of this in terms of importance. Heck, even a ranged silence is ahead of this and that's at the bottom of the pile.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
2535
I see some Bear Extremists here.

Or purists, should i say.

The harder the better.


Edit: Derp
Edited by Hoylshadow on 3/29/2011 9:15 AM PDT
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85 Tauren Warrior
5335
My 85 raiding alt is a bear.. and one thing that annoys me about bear tanks is.. i personally don't think they have the utility of other tanks... my warrior is a tank also, and we have shield bash(even tho its being taken away) and pummel, spell reflect, heroic throw, and the interrupt is on a 6 sec cd timer... bears have 1 interrupt at 35 sec, 1 stun at 1 minute.. and nothing that breaks fear or those types.. they're good at surviving but i'd rather tank on my warrior or DK for the fights that have more mechanics.. just imo..
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
03/29/2011 9:37 AMPosted by Seoulstice
My 85 raiding alt is a bear.. and one thing that annoys me about bear tanks is.. i personally don't think they have the utility of other tanks... my warrior is a tank also, and we have shield bash(even tho its being taken away) and pummel, spell reflect, heroic throw, and the interrupt is on a 6 sec cd timer... bears have 1 interrupt at 35 sec, 1 stun at 1 minute.. and nothing that breaks fear or those types.. they're good at surviving but i'd rather tank on my warrior or DK for the fights that have more mechanics.. just imo..

Can't count Bash and Pummel since one is getting taken out.

Spell reflect doesn't work in 99% of Raid Boss situations.

Any Bear that doesn't take Brutal Impact is never going to interrupt. Moreover there aren't any other tanking talents to put those points into, so you only drop it if you're going hybrid.

There's only 1 (or is there two and I'm just forgetting right now) boss in the game that fears at 85. Of course this could change in the future.
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90 Human Paladin
17765
bears have 1 interrupt at 35 sec


Try putting more then 1 point in Brutal Impact?
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52 Tauren Druid
5750
Before cata, I had started lvling this toon. It wasn't the easiest thing to do, but was a great learning experience about the bear. I had started this toon because of the greatest unique thing about the bear tanks, and that was the fact that the have talent points to make them uncritable. I thought this to be a great advantage, since then the bear could concentrate soly on gear, and not have to worry, like others, about Defense Rating.

Since the release of Cata, I have not played this toon. Now I see that Paladins also have the ability to become uncritable with the use of talent points. I will assume that Warriors also have the same thing, but do not play a Warrior so I do not know for sure. With the good tanking gear for a Bear being hard to find, those talent points made us unique.

I don't know if I'll play this toon anymore. For that matter, I may let my account expire for a while anyway as I'm getting bored with the game in general again.

All toons use to be unique, and I thought that was great. It was kinda like getting the right tool for the right job. Now, I see what looks like all tanks being the same, all healers being the same, and well DPS are a dime a dozen, and good ones are hard to find.

Time will tell, because summertime is around the corner, and I have my motorcycle to go work on.

Thanks for reading.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
Since the release of Cata, I have not played this toon. Now I see that Paladins also have the ability to become uncritable with the use of talent points. I will assume that Warriors also have the same thing, but do not play a Warrior so I do not know for sure. With the good tanking gear for a Bear being hard to find, those talent points made us unique.

Defense Skill was removed as a stat in Cata. All tanks have this talent.

All toons use to be unique, and I thought that was great. It was kinda like getting the right tool for the right job. Now, I see what looks like all tanks being the same, all healers being the same, and well DPS are a dime a dozen, and good ones are hard to find.

Because you can't rely on having one of everything available to you in a given raid group anymore.
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85 Night Elf Druid
5015
1. Thorns in Bear form when out of combat too please.

There is even more reason to say "No" to this after 4.1 than there was before


Nope. You're just wrong. Thorns can be popped before every pull already, so there is no feasible objection to this change that can rationally be applied because of the change to Thrash. We are not getting 'more' aggro from it. We're already doing it, so the aggro is already there.

The only thing this change does is make it so Bears do not lose rage between pulls by being forced into caster form. Therefore your objections are entirely specious, misplaced, and based on an incorrect set of assumptions, biases, and false paradigms.
Edited by Subditus on 3/29/2011 10:32 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
17765
Nope. You're just wrong. Thorns can be popped before every pull already, so there is no feasible objection to this change that can rationally be applied because of the change to Thrash. We are not getting 'more' aggro from it. We're already doing it, so the aggro is already there.


You're not if you Bear Charge into the next pull while the last couple of mobs from the previous pull are dying. Like a BOSS.
Edited by Darielle on 3/29/2011 10:39 AM PDT
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85 Human Warrior
7145
So taking the shield tanks from Wrath's role of add tanking and having block mean something and making it terrible for aoe or mob packs and insert the new shield mechanics of the non shield useing tanks and making the absorbs powerful for aoe packs.

Bit of a role reversal.

Give the shield useing tanks better aoe threat while ripping their survival and increasing non shield tanks survival for the same situation.

Thought the change to block having no minimum value was so aoe packs pose more of a threat to tank survivability. Its funny running lower level instances and seeing blocked hits pluck durability for 1 damage hits.
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90 Troll Warrior
16215
So taking the shield tanks from Wrath's role of add tanking and having block mean something and making it terrible for aoe or mob packs and insert the new shield mechanics of the non shield useing tanks and making the absorbs powerful for aoe packs.

Bit of a role reversal.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. This just gives them a full PW:S instead of it expiring in one swing. It's not giving them WotLK block.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
03/29/2011 10:31 AMPosted by Subditus
so there is no feasible objection to this change that can rationally be applied

PvP.

We are not getting 'more' aggro from it. We're already doing it, so the aggro is already there.

I'm not doing it. Just because you are doesn't mean everyone else is. Conversely just because I'm not doesn't mean everyone isn't. Additionally reflective threat is bad to rely on when you have high avoidance percentages.

03/29/2011 10:31 AMPosted by Subditus
The only thing this change does is make it so Bears do not lose rage between pulls by being forced into caster form

It also gives all Druids a "GTFO Me" button that can be combined with increased armor of Bear form in PvP. Just because you don't PvP doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I understand what you want to do for PvE reasons, however I am trying to explain to you that it's completely unnecesarry after 4.1.

03/29/2011 10:31 AMPosted by Subditus
Therefore your objections are entirely specious, misplaced, and based on an incorrect set of assumptions, biases, and false paradigms.

Actually they're based on math. Correct math.
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
10020
So taking the shield tanks from Wrath's role of add tanking and having block mean something and making it terrible for aoe or mob packs and insert the new shield mechanics of the non shield useing tanks and making the absorbs powerful for aoe packs.

Bit of a role reversal.

That's a bit of an exaggeration. This just gives them a full PW:S instead of it expiring in one swing. It's not giving them WotLK block.


That depends how they do it. I'm still not sure if he's saying the remaining shield will persist through a hit or if the shield will have a short duration and reduce all damage in that duration. If they do the former, it really isn't the buff that many bears seem to think. The cap does restrict them, but the faster swing times are just as detrimental. Honestly, either the bears are going to wind up still bad at AOE tanking or they become like DKs where they destroy outdated content. That's the problem with their current models; they are impossible to balance in every direction.
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52 Tauren Druid
5750
Not quitting because they removed defense rating gear. Quitting only because I find myself getting bored with the game again, and it is going to be summer time soon.
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90 Troll Warrior
16215
03/29/2011 11:00 AMPosted by Dosvidaniya
That depends how they do it. I'm still not sure if he's saying the remaining shield will persist through a hit or if the shield will have a short duration and reduce all damage in that duration. If they do the former, it really isn't the buff that many bears seem to think. The cap does restrict them, but the faster swing times are just as detrimental. Honestly, either the bears are going to wind up still bad at AOE tanking or they become like DKs where they destroy outdated content. That's the problem with their current models; they are impossible to balance in every direction.

I disagree; if they get to utilize the full shield instead of it being used on a hit that would only take 1/3 of it, that's a pretty decent buff.
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85 Human Warrior
11430
03/29/2011 11:08 AMPosted by Sildas
I disagree; if they get to utilize the full shield instead of it being used on a hit that would only take 1/3 of it, that's a pretty decent buff.


How frequently is that the case, though?

I would argue that it's mostly the case in situations where your damage taken doesn't matter. It probably happens on Nefarian adds, for example - but nobody's dying to Nefarian adds unless there's a larger issue going on (e.g. you're failing to reset them properly). Nobody's dying to Halfus whelps at all, as far as I know.

Even Maloriak adds are hitting like miniature mack trucks by the time you get to 9 adds on normal (or 6 adds on heroic).

The problem is less "wow much of my Savage Defense absorb was just flat out wasted" and more "wow I just got hit 7 times in the last three seconds and SD only stopped one of those and had a little bit left over."


If they actually increase the amount SD is absorbing (either through its proc frequency or simply by making a 20k SD proc mean "20k off every attack in the next 3 seconds", or whatever), that'll be a decent buff. If it's simply turning SD into PW:S, it's unlikely to make much of a difference.
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85 Night Elf Druid
10700
This change won't happen exactly as is. Changing SD to be an asorb is fantastic but essentially what this does is turn our SD in to a quasi Death Strike. However, We crit a lot more often then DK's are able to DS. We are gonna to see some kind of change on how exactly SD procs. Off the top of my head there are a couple good ways to do this

1) It still may be from crits but with some kind of Internal CD, somewhere in the neighborhood of 4-5 seconds or so?.

2) Perhaps it will only proc from Mangles or something. On the surface that actually seems like a pretty solid idea, but as is every other druid move is designed to make mangle better, we are gonna turn in to a 1 trick bear soon.

3) Savage Defense becomes a click ability that functions a bit like Death Strike that throws up our shield. We have a very different resource system then DK's but if it had a decent enough CD then maybe it will work out.

4) Crazy solution that may cause form rage is that SD stays Crit based but scales from a lower point. 1/4th of our attack power or something?

But the bottom line is that as much as I would like to see SD stay exactly the way it is but simply become an Absorb over time, I would be fairly surprised if that were to happen with no other changes to us.

Even if this results in less shield overall I think this is a solid change. I would much rather have a less often shield that is effective the many little ones that are wasted. I just hope all the DK's will stop laughing at our "Shield".
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