Calling druid tanks bad?

90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
03/30/2011 12:18 AMPosted by Emesh
If you look over the patch notes, you can see that many of the DPS classes have increased AOE potential in 4.1. If the DPS is getting an increase, and we're getting an increase, there could be no net increase. It depends on how much more powerful AOE becomes.

The ones that currently have terrible AoE are getting increased, yes. As previously mentioned.
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85 Night Elf Druid
9185
Arielle, yeah you can line of sight them, but it's a hassle. Particularly in pugs....a good example of this is heroic GB, right before throngus. (3 casters and a big melee about 10 yards apart) I try to get the group to stand behind the wall so I can LOS, but there's always a DPS that says "Just go" and refuses to listen.

There are so many occasions where I fantasize about having Death Grip....that being one of them. It's an annoyance.....and leaving it until bears are balanced basically means leaving it forever.

"as long as the casters are not incredibly, incredibly stupid."

Where do you find these magical creatures?
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90 Human Paladin
17765
If you look over the patch notes, you can see that many of the DPS classes have increased AOE potential in 4.1. If the DPS is getting an increase, and we're getting an increase, there could be no net increase. It depends on how much more powerful AOE becomes.


Specs that are getting AoE buffs are specs that are doing really really terrible AoE, so I'm not sure where you're taking this.

(Why Avenger's Shield is still allowed to be the only "smart" aoe weapon in the game eludes me, but that's beside the point.)


Because its role as ranged bouncing puller silencer requires it to be.

Do your Skull Bashing on the pull or worst case, if you absolutely cannot manage to do the simple things, drag everything back. The mobs will still come forward to you if you're "out of range" even if you're not "out of line of sight". I have zero problems with this pull as a Bear in controlling the mobs in this pack.

The other option is to tell the people you're with to not screw up CC since apparently you're afraid of bad things happening.
Edited by Darielle on 3/30/2011 1:59 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
17765
OK. Why do Paladins get a ranged bouncing puller silencer?


Because it's an iconic spell and they like us having it.
Because they gave it to us back in BC.
Because it's cool.

Pick one. It doesn't matter.
Edited by Darielle on 3/30/2011 2:01 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
17765
OK. Why are you allowed to have so many iconic spells, but they took away everything that made bears iconic, like our higher health pools?


Because that's not "an iconic spell". Iconic spells have nothing to do with health pools or armour, regardless of how much you can't stop whinging and moaning about things in every thread you ever post in because you're obsessed with complaining.

Your iconic spell, the one you've given at level 10 is Mangle. Same for us as Cats.
Edited by Darielle on 3/30/2011 2:04 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
17765
Higher health pools were what bears were all about. We don't HAVE any iconic spells. I know that's difficult for you to understand, since you're a sun-shines-out-of-my-ass paladin.


Mangle is both the Bear and Cat iconic spell.

It's a bit more of a stretch as Cat because it's a little bit more indirect being a spell that we want to use as little as possible but also the spell that makes everything orgasmic but yeah.

And sorry brah, Blizzard doesn't really care about your kicking and screaming at losing "higher health". Suck it up.
Edited by Darielle on 3/30/2011 2:07 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
17765
Mangle is a vanilla attack with Trauma tacked on. That's hardly iconic, especially compared to abilities like Avenger's Shield, Hand of Protection, Divine Shield, Lay on Hands, or Holy Wrath. Abilities no other class has a copy of. Therefore "iconic".

Blizzard seems to love tank homogenization up until the point where abilities exclusive to Paladins are concerned. Then they draw the line and say "no no we need differences between the tanking classes".


That's not what iconic is about to any relevant spec. Pyroblast is just a slightly bigger Fireball, it's still iconic, because it's like "FLAMING ROCK TO THE FACE" that a Fire Mage does. As a Bear or a Cat, you MANGLE that guy's ass and make him bleed more, because you're for fyte like that.

Whaaa Paladins whaaa. Your tears sustain Australia's drought so hard you started flooding them.
Edited by Darielle on 3/30/2011 2:20 AM PDT
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85 Worgen Death Knight
4700
Our MT is a druid she does just fine, i think its more the player than the class.
cripes logged out in my DPS set.
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85 Human Paladin
4185
Our MT is a druid she does just fine, i think its more the player than the class.
cripes logged out in my DPS set.


As has been said countless times, the problem wasn't with single target tanking it was with aoe tanking. These changes are specifically tailored to the latter.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
Many places have no LOS. The trash room in front of V&T comes to mind. (I've tried using the pillars, but the enemies have the magic ability to shoot through them.)

Why are you moving that trash at all? Much, much easier just to tank it where it stands.

03/30/2011 1:18 AMPosted by Tewa
Sometimes a cc'd caster (either one of the warlocks or one of the ranged elementals) is out of cc and starts casting a spell. I'm tanking something else. My only option is to feral charge and then skull bash. Now I'm out of position, and whatever mob I was tanking starts running after me, and all the melee dps has to chase it.

Why was it not re-CC'ed? This sounds like a CC problem as opposed to a tank problem. And honestly, moving while Melee DPSing is not that hard.

03/30/2011 1:18 AMPosted by Tewa
If I was a Warrior, I could Heroic Throw and interrupt the caster instead, then it would come to me.

Assuming you were the highest threat or you had taunted it and someone else hadn't pulled off you in the interim, yes. Since we've already established that it's more than 13 yards away in this situation (significantly more apparently, since you have to FC to it) that seems like a real danger.

Still haven't done a particularly good job at convincing me it's necesarry, since we just AoE down those trash packs anyways. Even so, it's still behind at least 3 other things in terms of "fixing". Moreover, even if we were to get a ranged silence, it wouldn't be of sufficient duration to solve the problem you described above.
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85 Night Elf Druid
5015
Pally...Bear...


I think the point is that Bear group mob tanking requires a lot more 'work' than Paladin or DK tanking by a huge degree - and a moderate degree more 'work' than Warrior tanking. This is not a subjective position. It is definitive and obvious. Feral Bears lack the tools that DKs and Paladins have which make group pulling an effortless process. Warriors also suffer from this, but to not as large a degree as Bears.

Ferals can't bring the group to them. They have to go to the group. Our only 'pull' ability is literally a single target debuff which is on a cooldown. We can tab to one other target and Growl. That's it. After that we have to hope to high heaven that the DPS doesn't start in with anything until about 5 seconds have passed (wait for range, take hits, get rage, use Thrash, use Swipe).

By comparison Paladin/DK group pulling is like falling into a the most comfortable bed you've ever slept in. They can pull entire groups to themselves, damaging them along the way, and getting group aggro to such a high extent that it becomes difficult for DPS to pull even the WRONG target off the Pally/DK.

Bears can't do that. They can't even touch that. All they can do is wistfully sigh and and hunker down as they work their butts off with every single group pull - hoping beyond hope that just ONCE the DPS will wait a full 5 to 8 seconds.

Boss fights? No problem. Too bad boss pulls are only about 5% of a tank's job. For 95% of an average instance a Bear tank is working 4X as hard.

I don't begrudge Pally/DK tanks their great tools. But for Pally and DK tanks to grumble about Bears wanting to have better/easier ways to perform group pulling duties is ridiculous. There are a TON of QoL fixes bears could get that would not unbalance the game, but would make their jobs so much easier. The SD fix will be nice - huzzah. But let's not stop there. Let's make it so Bear group pulls feel less like a chaotic chore. Let Bears have the tools they need to make it so a group pull more about attacking mobs and less about desperately competing with your own DPS classes. Let's have more tools that make the job fun, and remove bad design where you are forced to 'working around' your limitations.
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85 Night Elf Druid
9185
03/30/2011 7:55 AMPosted by Subditus
Pally...Bear...


I think the point is that Bear group mob tanking requires a lot more 'work' than Paladin or DK tanking by a huge degree - and a moderate degree more 'work' than Warrior tanking. This is not a subjective position. It is definitive and obvious. Feral Bears lack the tools that DKs and Paladins have which make group pulling an effortless process. Warriors also suffer from this, but to not as large a degree as Bears.

Ferals can't bring the group to them. They have to go to the group. Our only 'pull' ability is literally a single target debuff which is on a cooldown. We can tab to one other target and Growl. That's it. After that we have to hope to high heaven that the DPS doesn't start in with anything until about 5 seconds have passed (wait for range, take hits, get rage, use Thrash, use Swipe).

By comparison Paladin/DK group pulling is like falling into a the most comfortable bed you've ever slept in. They can pull entire groups to themselves, damaging them along the way, and getting group aggro to such a high extent that it becomes difficult for DPS to pull even the WRONG target off the Pally/DK.

Bears can't do that. They can't even touch that. All they can do is wistfully sigh and and hunker down as they work their butts off with every single group pull - hoping beyond hope that just ONCE the DPS will wait a full 5 to 8 seconds.

Boss fights? No problem. Too bad boss pulls are only about 5% of a tank's job. For 95% of an average instance a Bear tank is working 4X as hard.

I don't begrudge Pally/DK tanks their great tools. But for Pally and DK tanks to grumble about Bears wanting to have better/easier ways to perform group pulling duties is ridiculous. There are a TON of QoL fixes bears could get that would not unbalance the game, but would make their jobs so much easier. The SD fix will be nice - huzzah. But let's not stop there. Let's make it so Bear group pulls feel less like a chaotic chore. Let Bears have the tools they need to make it so a group pull more about attacking mobs and less about desperately competing with your own DPS classes. Let's have more tools that make the job fun, and remove bad design where you are forced to 'working around' your limitations.


That was a really eloquent post, thank you for writing it.
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85 Draenei Warrior
9495
as a warrior, who has nearly the same limit for remote pulling (heroic throw, taunt, shoot)
you have to be creative.

need rage on a pull? use enrage and then use barkskin to counter the damage.
need to pull a *LOT* of agro on the pull?

hurricane... then shift to bear.

be creative.
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85 Tauren Druid
3580
as a warrior, who has nearly the same limit for remote pulling (heroic throw, taunt, shoot)
you have to be creative.

need rage on a pull? use enrage and then use barkskin to counter the damage.
need to pull a *LOT* of agro on the pull?

hurricane... then shift to bear.

be creative.


You can spec into ranged silence. Druids can't. BIG difference.
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