Calling druid tanks bad?

85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
I'd like to see rage generating Feral Charge, and Bears get a variant of Heroic Leap or Shockwave that deals damage and silences. lolidea:

Trample
Requires: Bear Form, 1 min cooldown
Rush to the target location, etching an 8 yard wide path of destruction that deals [50% of AP] to all enemies and silences them for 4 sec.

.

That would have to be talented in some way, no way do you want resto druids to have it in PvP.

I'll admit when I saw Pulverize in Beta I was like, cool name, but isnt this just more damage? They could have done so much more with it.
Edited by Charsi on 3/30/2011 9:12 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
13570
I'd like to see rage generating Feral Charge, and Bears get a variant of Heroic Leap or Shockwave that deals damage and silences.

I'll admit when I saw Pulverize in Beta I was like, cool name, but isnt this just more damage? They could have done so much more with this.


Yeah, bears are rather sad that way. I still think they need
-Rage from feral charge.
-Their own version of commanding shout (which gens rage when used). Alternatively, get rid of the stupid debuff from their rage gen; otherwise just give them this to cover the rage beyond an initial charge pre-pull.
-A unique silence. I don't care what it is; it could be a ranged AOE silence like the moonkin beam. It could be a blanket AOE silence nearby. Whatever, they should have some unique silence like every other class.
-A long CD up-front AOE threat ability. I don't care if it's on a 30 seconds CD (like D&D), but mashing swipe is not fun. Why can't they get some stupid mass bleed that ticks like D&D on all mobs hit by their initial thrash?
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85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
Agreed on the Enrage thing - increased damage taken is just obnoxious. Get rid of it. And a couple more roars wouldnt hurt.

I think the trample thing covers the rest.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
-A unique silence. I don't care what it is; it could be a ranged AOE silence like the moonkin beam. It could be a blanket AOE silence nearby. Whatever, they should have some unique silence like every other class.

PvP is the problem with this. If there were a way to give it to PvE without making it available in PvP I would agree. However that isn't possible.

The easiest way I suppose would be to just make it work on mobs and not PCs. But I don't know if they're willing to do that.
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
13570
Agreed on the Enrage thing - increased damage taken is just obnoxious. Get rid of it. And a couple more roars wouldnt hurt.

I think the trample thing covers the rest.

Yeah, I think it should have a threat modifier attached. But a feral charge that used a selected area as a destination would work great and double as an intervene of its own form. I like it.

The easiest way I suppose would be to just make it work on mobs and not PCs. But I don't know if they're willing to do that.

That's the biggest problem for feral druids. They are actually balanced with pvp in mind and it hurts them a bit. I know there were certain lock abilities that you couldn't cast on players, maybe they'd do the same here (curse of doom!). Alternatively, you could make that silence share a CD with bash or something.
Edited by Dosvidaniya on 3/30/2011 9:24 AM PDT
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85 Tauren Druid
8960
03/30/2011 12:30 AMPosted by Emesh
Arielle, yeah you can line of sight them, but it's a hassle. Particularly in pugs....a good example of this is heroic GB, right before throngus. (3 casters and a big melee about 10 yards apart) I try to get the group to stand behind the wall so I can LOS, but there's always a DPS that says "Just go" and refuses to listen.

Death grip is incredibly handy - I won't lie about that. It's extremely rare that I use it, or feel like I need to use it to control a caster, however. Most pulls with casters are better dealt with in one of two ways, with a third way as the fallback:
1. CC the casters and pull the melee
2. AOE the whole group and kill casters first where they spawn
3. Run over there and interrupt the prick. This is actually the DPS's job, but most DPS are bad and then it falls to the tank. In a good group, it happens automatically without having to ask. I *always* pummel, bash, counterspell, silence, etc casters at range if I'm playing DPS to make things easy.

I actually use death grip more often as a "kill this first" mark that never gets ignored like skull. A mob that arrives 3 seconds before the rest of the pull always gets focus fired on.

Even if you have a gimmick spell like DG, you should know how to tank when when it's on cooldown or the mob is immune. This is more important than people realize.

I suspect that most of the people wishing they have things like DG either aren't taking the entire class as a whole into account, or simply have not played the other class. Tanking does not suddenly get easy with death grip, and mangling things is no harder if you play well. I speak specifically of death grip because I've never played a paladin past ~30, and haven't touched my warrior since wrath.

Many places have no LOS. The trash room in front of V&T comes to mind. (I've tried using the pillars, but the enemies have the magic ability to shoot through them.)

If there isn't line of sight pillars, get off your ass and start running. If you run past the group a bit, the mobs will stop at the group. This was the standard way I pulled things back in EQ, but it works fine in wow as well.

03/30/2011 1:18 AMPosted by Tewa
You may respond with "well the ranged dps can interrupt it". True. But if I was anything other than a Druid, they wouldn't have to...

You have it backwards. If they were anything but useless, YOU wouldn't have to. Melee can do it just fine as well. God forbid they have to stop DPS for 2 seconds to walk over and kick a mob!
Edited by Bovie on 3/30/2011 11:11 AM PDT
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85 Troll Druid
7040
While player skill is important, there are classes better than others.

Paladins - Best overall tank.Very good AOE abilites and single target attacks. Also the best at holding more enemies than any other tank. Remember taking BRD boss with 20 enemies and never dipping below 50% health.

Warriors - All around balanced warrior, good AOE abilities and single target attacks. Moderate at taking damage.

DK's- Ok tank, though they still can't shake the newb stereotype.

Bears - Underachievers, if there was a tank class to the choose from it's best to avoid the bear.


You can /shoo with your biases now, thanks.
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90 Human Paladin
17775
I think the point is that Bear group mob tanking requires a lot more 'work' than Paladin or DK tanking by a huge degree - and a moderate degree more 'work' than Warrior tanking. This is not a subjective position. It is definitive and obvious. Feral Bears lack the tools that DKs and Paladins have which make group pulling an effortless process. Warriors also suffer from this, but to not as large a degree as Bears.

Ferals can't bring the group to them. They have to go to the group. Our only 'pull' ability is literally a single target debuff which is on a cooldown. We can tab to one other target and Growl. That's it. After that we have to hope to high heaven that the DPS doesn't start in with anything until about 5 seconds have passed (wait for range, take hits, get rage, use Thrash, use Swipe).

By comparison Paladin/DK group pulling is like falling into a the most comfortable bed you've ever slept in. They can pull entire groups to themselves, damaging them along the way, and getting group aggro to such a high extent that it becomes difficult for DPS to pull even the WRONG target off the Pally/DK.

Bears can't do that. They can't even touch that. All they can do is wistfully sigh and and hunker down as they work their butts off with every single group pull - hoping beyond hope that just ONCE the DPS will wait a full 5 to 8 seconds.

Boss fights? No problem. Too bad boss pulls are only about 5% of a tank's job. For 95% of an average instance a Bear tank is working 4X as hard.

I don't begrudge Pally/DK tanks their great tools. But for Pally and DK tanks to grumble about Bears wanting to have better/easier ways to perform group pulling duties is ridiculous. There are a TON of QoL fixes bears could get that would not unbalance the game, but would make their jobs so much easier. The SD fix will be nice - huzzah. But let's not stop there. Let's make it so Bear group pulls feel less like a chaotic chore. Let Bears have the tools they need to make it so a group pull more about attacking mobs and less about desperately competing with your own DPS classes. Let's have more tools that make the job fun, and remove bad design where you are forced to 'working around' your limitations.


You're ....
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
... doing it wrong.
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85 Human Warrior
11430
It's fascinating to me that so many bears feel having a ranged silence is vitally important. I have two prot specs and neither of them has Gag Order. What makes a ranged silence so important?
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
03/30/2011 11:21 AMPosted by Ahti
It's fascinating to me that so many bears feel having a ranged silence is vitally important. I have two prot specs and neither of them has Gag Order. What makes a ranged silence so important?

It isn't.
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85 Troll Druid
7040
03/30/2011 11:27 AMPosted by Arielle
It's fascinating to me that so many bears feel having a ranged silence is vitally important. I have two prot specs and neither of them has Gag Order. What makes a ranged silence so important?

It isn't.


This. I really wish people would focus more on the charge and enrage issues then the stupid ranged silence issue.
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85 Tauren Druid
0
I'd rather have a ranged AE threat skill... or maybe an AE stun.
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85 Goblin Warrior
1330
03/30/2011 9:20 AMPosted by Arielle
-A unique silence. I don't care what it is; it could be a ranged AOE silence like the moonkin beam. It could be a blanket AOE silence nearby. Whatever, they should have some unique silence like every other class.

PvP is the problem with this. If there were a way to give it to PvE without making it available in PvP I would agree. However that isn't possible.

The easiest way I suppose would be to just make it work on mobs and not PCs. But I don't know if they're willing to do that.



Oh noes, we cant give that to bears because that would give them synergy in pvp!

Give me a break. Its astounding how much the druids pve-carebears around here think of pvp so much when it comes to balancing their pve tanking. I will just refer to my earlier points.

Carry on.
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
Oh noes, we cant give that to bears because that would give them synergy in pvp!

Give me a break. Its astounding how much the druids pve-carebears around here think of pvp so much when it comes to balancing their pve tanking. I will just refer to my earlier points.

Carry on.

If you had read GC's latest blogpost on PvP and casters vs melee you would understand.
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85 Tauren Druid
8960
03/30/2011 7:55 AMPosted by Subditus
Let's have more tools that make the job fun, and remove bad design where you are forced to 'working around' your limitations.

Using what you have in creative ways that makes you better is always going to be a big part of tanking for anyone that's good at it. For many, it's the one of the most enjoyable parts of the game. I don't want a skill for each game mechanic to make everything trivial; I want a challenge now and then.
Edited by Bovie on 3/30/2011 11:36 AM PDT
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85 Troll Druid
7040
03/30/2011 11:30 AMPosted by Tangedyn
I'd rather have a ranged AE threat skill... or maybe an AE stun.


/drool, yes please.
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85 Goblin Warrior
1330
LOL, whats the point of reading GC's blogpost when all he does is spout a bunch of nonsense, that guy couldnt theorycraft himself out of a paper-bag and relies on everyone else to do it for him and then he still doesn't get stuff right half the time.

Plus his half-baked theories on 'pvp balance' are the worse this game has ever seen. Kalgan was better than him, and thats crazy talk yet its true.
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