World of Warcraft®

Recuperate was already on the table. Now that the base has been increased to 3%, and we can still only max out at 4% when talented, a lot of rogues are going to give up improved recuperate. Some will still take it, but not all like we're currently seeing. This means a 1% loss in healing every 3 seconds, and a loss of 6% damage mitigation while recuperate is active. It's about the only buff to other classes you're going to see when it comes to recuperate. So just drop it already.

I'm not saying ALL rogues are going to drop imp recup, but it allows us to more easily pickup quickening, and it's going to grant us another 10% to crit on backstab, etc. So we'll see a little more damage, but a little less survivability. Fair trade.

Smokebomb is beyond fine.

03/28/2011 5:25 PMPosted by Harmonics

This means a 1% loss in healing every 3 seconds, and a loss of 6% damage mitigation while recuperate is active.

Its a .4% loss quickening + 3% base is 3.6% so its not giving up much since thats where the points would go.

Will this change also affect/improve how redirect aggro's some mobs (they literally twitch as if they've been struck by something) and/or sets off damage reflect shields?

03/28/2011 5:54 PMPosted by Wargâsm

i see 1 post about rogue pvp problems and there is a blue post, what about the 9734958738957389573 posts on warriors and we havnt got a single post. gota love this.

If you have something constructive to add, then do so in your own thread. While it is true that this thread is for rogue concerns, that isn't why the blues just happened to reply to it -- more because it is valid or constructive criticism, as they often suggest you do.

-Z-

This means a 1% loss in healing every 3 seconds, and a loss of 6% damage mitigation while recuperate is active.

Its a .4% loss quickening + 3% base is 3.6% so its not giving up much since thats where the points would go.

Ah yes, my mistake. I wasn't factoring in the extra 10% from quickening that you'd get from going 2/2. Regardless, it's still a bit of a loss, even if only minor, and 6% less damage mitigation. We'll be more squishy all around since any subtlety rogue has damn near flawless uptime on recuperate. So it is indeed lowering our survivability to a degree.

Any further change to recuperate is not needed. If the developers really felt it was indeed over-tuned than it would of seen a more direct nerf with 4.1 which has seen a lot of balance changes. We went from borderline horrible survivability(wrath) to good survivability. We lost a little bit of burst(We used to have great burst ALL the time, not just during S-Dance) and our signature stunlock, which was probably the most significant change the rogue class has seen in 6 years. They want fights to last longer, and in order to do that, rogue's needed the boost to mitigation/healing because IF we get into a situation where we are tunneled, we drop very quickly. IE: When we don't have cloak or vanish up, we get rocked very quickly.

Besides, you only need roughly 1500dps to negate recuperate's healing, which any class can do by simply auto-attacking, or wanding.

People often over-estimate our burst. It IS good. It isn't ridiculous. There are plenty of classes with burst just as good if not better than ours. Some requires less setup than a full kidney->smokebomb. And that's assuming we don't go into a dance just to have KS trinketed. We are in a great place right now. We're no longer capable of killing someone 100-0% in a stunlock. We cannot stunlock period. We get a 6 second stun that lands on DR with pretty much every other cc of the same type and theres plenty of classes who pack the same power when it comes to stuns. We are still decently fragile. Are we a good tunnel target? No, not really. The archetype of a "rogue" pretty much goes hand in hand with being quick and nimble, so it fits. Do we still die when a heavy hitter gets us into a CC window? Yup, recuperate or not.

The amount of burst in the game right now is not stopped from recuperate, I think everyone knows that. Is recuperate very strong in 1v1? Certainly, but again...I think we all know 1v1s don't mean anything besides an ego-boost.

And bashi, while you are here...Can you please pass an idea along to the devs that the rogue class in general would like a different sound effect to go along with activating smoke-bomb? When I heard the belch the first time, I did laugh. I admit. However, it doesn't really go with the aspect of the spell. Perhaps we can re-use the old sound effect from vanish? It sounded just like popping a smoke-grenade(best I can relate it with).

I think that alone would be a nice QoL change for us.

Hell, with all the complaining about smoke-bomb, I'm surprised someone hasn't offered up the idea of creating an engineering grenade. It would work just like smoke-bomb, and obscure LoS for 3 seconds. You know why I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned? Because it's retarded, and seeing as how I've seen some of the stupidest calls for nerfs in this single forum...i'm surprised I haven't seen it. Imagine every class having mini-smokebombs as long as they were maxed engineers.

Haha Dax! My apologies sir. I was just reading a thread that had bashi in it and I got mixed up.

So dax, think you could possibly slip the devs a suspicious letter from the rogue community? I think a better sound effect for smoke bomb would be a reasonably easy change, and would make a lot of us happy. Doesn't affect balance at all. Purely quality of life.

Dear grand-wizards of Blizzard,

The rogue community, as well as I, Harmonics, feel as if smoke-bomb should have a more appropriate sound effect to go with it. We are lethal assassins. If we do decide to burp, one would think we would be quiet about it as to not attract unwanted attention. I think the grand-wizards of the royal blue academy of blizzard would find that the poof like sound a smoke-grenade makes once it activates would be a great choice for our smoke-bombs. Also, I feel as if the animation for smoke-bomb could be made more visually appealing. For instance, take Distract for example. When we use Distract, you can see that we are throwing *something* at the ground. The same should be applied for smoke-bomb in conjunction with the new sound effect. With these changes, smoke bomb would have a more meaningful look/sound to it. Small issues like this would make many of us rogues pleased. Since we are not asking for direct buffs to our classes mechanics, the little things go miles for us, and I feel you'll be making the majority of us that much happier.

Sincerely,

Your neighborhood assassin, Harmonics. Oh yea, and the other 5% of all level 85s world-wide. Those guys count too.

#1 Redirect
This ability is very straight forward in it's intent and purpose in that it swaps combo points from one target to another for the purpose of using them. Luckily, rogues in PvE have not had to deal with a crippling design problem within Subtlety because the spec isn't raid viable. Sadly, had it actually been a problem for PvE it most likely would have been fixed or already part of 4.1.

Well, actually, it is on the table for 4.1. The issue you described with Honor Among Thieves causing a loss of combo points with Redirect should be resolved with that patch.

We're actually fairly comfortable with Smoke Bomb in its current implementation. It can still help your team finish off a victim while they are temporarily cut off from support, and it retains its usefulness for defense and escape.

Any chance we can get redirect off the global?

redirect and or smoke bomb off globals will be nice. off topic. when blizzard going to reintroduce glyph of envenom? i thought they added it on the test servers right before cata came out but they removed it for some reason. " your envenom wont consume your deadly poison stacks" it would help sub rogues dps in pve by a lot so they really can compete with other specs/classes

Since we have a blue in the thread, can we make smoke bomb actually smoke bomb, and not the belch/fart sound?

#2 Smokebomb
Originally, when Smokebomb was 10secs there was a lot of extra time to get off our abilities and to setup for the kill. The result was that it was too inescapable for some classes at that duration and at that size. So the nerf from 10 to 5secs and from 10 to 8yards was definitely needed if not for the sole reason to commonly force rogues to setup smokebomb with a kidney rather than save it to easily catch trinkets and not allow escape. However, the shorter duration highlights a problem, which again involves the GCD. The window smokebomb creates is crucial and yet the ability puts rogues on a GCD delaying when sizeable damage can be outputted. Meaning that the effective window of Smokebomb for a rogue is only 4secs in the most optimal conditions. That is shorter than most CCs and lockouts and while a healer could trinket those and not smokebomb that's suppose to be the trade-off of having such a lengthy CD.

?? Are you serious? You're asking for a massive 100% MS on a dps to be off the GCD? That's like me asking for throwdown to not be on the gcd so I can have that extra1.5sec to hit them! That's...Insane!!! If anything it's range could be made even shorter, so be glad it's still as powerful as it is. Rogues would still be in a very good place pvp-wise without it. Everyone has their CC (except interrupts) on the gcd. Make the best of it.

And no, you can't put redirect off the gcd so you can macro it with a damage ability on your target and hit a focus with it without even thinking.

BRING BACK MALE UNDEAD SLOW STEALTH WALK PLX

?? Are you serious? You're asking for a massive 100% MS on a dps to be off the GCD? That's like me asking for throwdown to not be on the gcd so I can have that extra1.5sec to hit them! That's...Insane!!! If anything it's range could be made even shorter, so be glad it's still as powerful as it is. Rogues would still be in a very good place pvp-wise without it. Everyone has their CC (except interrupts) on the gcd. Make the best of it.

And no, you can't put redirect off the gcd so you can macro it with a damage ability on your target and hit a focus with it without even thinking.

Is throwdown a 3min cool down? Does smokebomb have a untrinketable knockdown effect? Do rogues have nearly the burst or pressure of a warrior? The only thing that is insane is your attempt at a comparison.

A real argument would have been that the strength of smokebomb stacks with teammate damage and that even if the rogue has a delay before adding to the kill window it's strong enough now the removal of the delay would unbalance it i.e. it's not suppose to be that effective for the rogue individually.

As for your redirect comment I'm not sure you actually understand how it works or what it's used for in a PvP setting. First, it's primary use is a redirect->kidney either for swaps or as a focus CC. Ironically, this is where throwdown is comparable. Any warrior can /cast [@focus] throwdown. Rogues can't do this with finishers because of combo points. That's part of why redirect was added to the game, but the fact that it's still on the GCD makes /cast [@focus]redirect;/cast [@focus] Kidney Shot impossible. If having a resource that stacked on a target came with some other kind of major benefit then the delay would be the trade-off, but there is no such benefit. It's only a disadvantage. Asking for our 1min CD to not be on a GCD so we can instantly swap or /focus like every other class in the game is not asking for much. It's asking for balance.

03/28/2011 12:10 PMPosted by Rixxis

walked out of. I'm not saying it's not more powerful, but comparing it to spammable CC is worthless. That being said it's fine at 5 seconds and on the GCD. Redirecting CPs to a target and then losing them because HaT procs is completely retarded. If anything redirect should be off the GCD.

I am not the one who compared it to spammable CC. Look at what I quoted. You don't "walk out" of it. Who sets up smoke bomb without a way to keep the victim inside it's zone?

The whole reason why smoke bomb is 5 seconds baseline is that in most cases in arena, it can last 10 on demand.

I too thing it is fine in it's current from, I don't understand why people think it is lackluster in any way, shape or form.