HW: Sanctuary

85 Blood Elf Paladin
4055
03/27/2011 5:19 PMPosted by Albinosmurfs
Your argument is basically "I don't want to have to use more heals, so don't fix HW:S". First of all you shouldn't be playing a Priest if the concept of a lot of different healing spells is unappealing. Secondly, even if HW:S was buffed it would still be optional. Priests have so much overlap that very few of our heals are "must use". HW:S wouldn't be any different. And for the reasons I explained above, it wouldn't be necessary to nerf any of a Priest's other heals either.


I'm not saying I couldn't use it, or wouldn't be able to use it. I'm making the obvious argument that we already have more spell diversity than any other class. Also i see you ignored my point about how we'd be losing less effect with our aoe heals if we nerfed our ranged heals and condensed them into a shaman like healing rain spell. Please make me less effective at healing players at ranged so i can use a spell that places a hot on the ground! Thats a bad change with priests.


I ignored your point because it doesn't make an sense.
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100 Gnome Priest
8850
To buff one spell we'd have to nerf another.... follow me so far? Our aoe spells have large ranges aka prayer of healing. why nerf a spell like that to make our little healing circle stronger? We'd lose the better spell or healing from it to add to a worse healing spell with less effect range and it doesn't work if they dont' stand still for 18 seconds... just leave priests alone were obviously better without your input.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
4055
Well as I explained before, buffs don't necessarily need to be accompanied by a nerf. Druids are evidence of that. Take this scenerio where you have a healer with 3 different heals.

Heal 1: 10 mana 1000 healing on 1 target
Heal 2: 10 mana 200 healing on 3 targets
Heal 3: 15 mana 1000 healing on 1 target over 10 seconds

In this scenario this healer's playstyle would be pretty easy to predict. Heal 1, Heal 1, Heal 1, Heal 1, Heal 1.

If they were to change those spells to something more like this...

Heal 1: 10 mana 1000 healing on 1 target
Heal 2: 10 mana 333 healing on 3 targets
Heal 3: 10 mana 1000 healing on 1 target over 10 seconds

In this example even though the second and third heals were buffed notably, the healer wouldn't actually be doing any more healing since heal 2 and 3 would be taking over the role of heal 1. This is what I mean by buffs don't nessicarily need to be accompanied by nerfs. That's how Blizzard was able to provide Priests with a slew a buffs last patch without actually increasing their overall effectiveness. They did that by only buffing spells that were below par. Based on the amount of healing per mana HW:S is currently providing, imo it's obviously below par.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3210
03/27/2011 2:03 PMPosted by Highbeams
That's assuming you can get 6+ players standing on it for 18 seconds, and assuming people even need healing for those full 18 seconds. It's extremely rare that happens.


The melee group in pretty much every 25-player raid in pretty much every single boss fight that has AE (not counting plenty of boss fights where it would be good regardless of raid size -- Magmaw, Chimaeron, Maloriak, Nefarian, Halfus minus Time Warden, Cho'gall, Conclave). I prefer 10-player raids myself, but healing still is going to be balanced with 25-player raids in mind.

Look, I agree that HW:Sanctuary sucks at the moment. I barely ever use it myself other than to admire the animation. The thing is, when you don't make it suck anymore, then it will improve healing throughput. If priest healing throughput is considered balanced right now, then that will require nerfs elsewhere.

In the end, I don't really care. Holy priests do not even need HW:Sanctuary to be functional healers. The holy priest healing arsenal is already the most comprehensive of any healer. I don't care about HW:Sanctuary to be not very useful anymore than I care about Mass Dispel not being very useful. It's not an issue that affects whether I can heal a raid encounter or not.
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69 Human Paladin
810
If you think it's efficient to pay 10k mana to split what amounts to a Flash Heal crit between 6 people then go ahead and keep casting Sanctuary in your raids. It makes it real easy to tell who the horribad Holy Priests are.

And that new graphic looks awful.
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85 Goblin Priest
7875
That's assuming you can get 6+ players standing on it for 18 seconds, and assuming people even need healing for those full 18 seconds. It's extremely rare that happens.


The melee group in pretty much every 25-player raid in pretty much every single boss fight that has AE (not counting plenty of boss fights where it would be good regardless of raid size -- Magmaw, Chimaeron, Maloriak, Nefarian, Halfus minus Time Warden, Cho'gall, Conclave). I prefer 10-player raids myself, but healing still is going to be balanced with 25-player raids in mind.

Look, I agree that HW:Sanctuary sucks at the moment. I barely ever use it myself other than to admire the animation. The thing is, when you don't make it suck anymore, then it will improve healing throughput. If priest healing throughput is considered balanced right now, then that will require nerfs elsewhere.

In the end, I don't really care. Holy priests do not even need HW:Sanctuary to be functional healers. The holy priest healing arsenal is already the most comprehensive of any healer. I don't care about HW:Sanctuary to be not very useful anymore than I care about Mass Dispel not being very useful. It's not an issue that affects whether I can heal a raid encounter or not.


That attitude doesn't fit the game, and in my opinion, the game would stagnate if so. We were pretty good without lightwell use. I'd hazard a guess that hardly any priest took lightwell pre cataclysm. We functioned very well without lightwell. They still improved it to the point where it's the best healing hot in the game bar none. (edit: err just to explain my views, since this is the healing forums after all. I'm not implying they should buff sanctuary to ridiculous levels. I would prefer them to change the talents affecting it to affect something else. Then I can forget it existed ala lightwell pre cat)

I'm more concerned with talents devoted to the chakra revelation effects to be honest. I haven't had state of mind for a while, and I want to drop tome of light and revelations. There's nothing good to take for those points however (rapid renewal isn't too bad maybe, but lol@redemption and blessed resilience).
Edited by Benea on 3/28/2011 5:27 AM PDT
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85 Night Elf Priest
9215
03/27/2011 8:31 PMPosted by Fionne
In the end, I don't really care. Holy priests do not even need HW:Sanctuary to be functional healers. The holy priest healing arsenal is already the most comprehensive of any healer. I don't care about HW:Sanctuary to be not very useful anymore than I care about Mass Dispel not being very useful. It's not an issue that affects whether I can heal a raid encounter or not.


This is very true. I can't think of an incident that, at the end of the encounter, I was wishing I had used HW:S either for more throughput (WoL purposes) or increased survivability (if we had wiped). In fact, it's typically just the opposite because I'll likely need the mana and chances of getting it back during heroic encounters is difficult unless there is some outside CD used. Which sucks...I miss the days where priest mana regen was easier controlled by the priest and not replenishment, innervate or mana tide. But that's a separate issue.

It all boils down to the fact that priests DO in fact have many spells that they use during many given encounters. I even find myself hitting even Holy Nova when on the move to help close the gap of ~50% health to 100% until I can stop and get a PoH off. Someone earlier mentioned that a buff to one spell in the priest arsenal would most likely result in a nerf elsewhere. There's proof of this in our current patch. Priest healing is weighed as a whole -- from spell A to spell Z. Not all other healers can say the same...

Shaman, the once cherished raid healers in the long forgotten Sunwell days, even among the ranks of paladins, pale in comparison in the reality that is throughput. Or at least effective throughput. Holy Radiance is god, in that, it's not reliant on the placement of others as do these other ground AoE healing effects. Looking at Healing Rain's throughput, I think it's appropriate. I was happy to see the buff to Shaman healing. Blizzard gave them a pacifier to silence their cries and ultimately gave them a reason to want to play their class again, at least from a healing standpoint.

Looking at mana per point of healing here's the layout...
HW:S < Efflorescence < Holy Radience < Healing Rain

I'm ok with that. Would a change be nice? Chya! Will it happen? Hmm...maybe. Maybe they'll surprise us.

What would be a nice suggestion would be to make HW:S similar to Efflorescence in that it has a chance to proc off of PoM bounces, once it lands it goes on cooldown for 18 secs. No additional mana lost here and chances of it being stood in will be as likely as if it were actually Efflorescence. At least it'd see more uptime than it does now.

Anyway, just adding my tinder to the fire that is conversation.
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85 Night Elf Druid
6540
What would be a nice suggestion would be to make HW:S similar to Efflorescence in that it has a chance to proc off of PoM bounces, once it lands it goes on cooldown for 18 secs. No additional mana lost here and chances of it being stood in will be as likely as if it were actually Efflorescence. At least it'd see more uptime than it does now.


Efflo is a guaranteed proc from Swiftmend and is often cast on the druid to ensure it's positioned properly. I see your reasoning but it would make HW:S completely useless, it already has enough pre-reqs to make it undesirable to use in almost every circumstance, and not having control over where it lands would defeat the purpose of it being a localised ground heal. Additionally the cost of HW:S would be merged into PoM, albeit probably lowered.
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85 Night Elf Priest
9215
03/28/2011 6:16 AMPosted by Pyebwa
What would be a nice suggestion would be to make HW:S similar to Efflorescence in that it has a chance to proc off of PoM bounces, once it lands it goes on cooldown for 18 secs. No additional mana lost here and chances of it being stood in will be as likely as if it were actually Efflorescence. At least it'd see more uptime than it does now.


Efflo is a guaranteed proc from Swiftmend and is often cast on the druid to ensure it's positioned properly. I see your reasoning but it would make HW:S completely useless, it already has enough pre-reqs to make it undesirable to use in almost every circumstance, and not having control over where it lands would defeat the purpose of it being a localised ground heal. Additionally the cost of HW:S would be merged into PoM, albeit probably lowered.


Um, have you not been following this thread at all? Essentially, HW:S isn't being used anyway. So what we're looking at right now is avoidance of a spell due to crappy throughput, high mana cost and inefficient utility. In my suggestion, instead of the strict avoidance of an ability that is virtually worthless in comparison to almost any other priest aoe spell, it'd be cast based off of RNG and would sometimes benefit those surrounding the player affected.

Keep in mind, it was only a suggestion. It's not like I sat down for breakfast and mulled through this as if it were an important business proposal. =/ I could've easily suggested that it'd be based off of the primary bounce or even the cast of PoM itself to grant the Sanctuary effect. Both of those (the latter being more so) would have more control of where the ring would appear. But I thought it'd be more interesting and dynamic in the aforementioned reply.
Edited by Iove on 3/28/2011 7:09 AM PDT
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If you think it's efficient to pay 10k mana to split what amounts to a Flash Heal crit between 6 people then go ahead and keep casting Sanctuary in your raids. It makes it real easy to tell who the horribad Holy Priests are.

And that new graphic looks awful.


Your post confuses me. Mine is healing me for about 650-700 per tick. Each tick gets Mastery, putting it at 650-700x1.2 per tick, or 780-800 per tick, per player. That is 7020-7200 healing over the duration of the spell. If 6 players stand in it you're looking at 42-43k healed across those 6 players, not factoring in Crits (and you can probably expect at least 1-2 per player). If more players stand in it the total healing amount goes down but I find it hard to believe it makes it useless (would have to check next time I have 10 standing in it I guess). Either way, that is more healing on those players than if I did not cast it.

And.... don't get me wrong. The spell could use some improvements. It's fairly mana intensive for what it provides. I am just saying you are greatly exaggerating when you say it only heals for what amounts to a Flash Heal crit. For comparison sake it heals about what a CoH cast would over a longer period of time and for 5.1k more mana. If anything the mana cost is the issue, not the healing....
Edited by Pleiades on 3/28/2011 8:05 AM PDT
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14 Goblin Warrior
50
They could remove HW:Sanctuary and give us HW:Aspire back.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
4055
If you think it's efficient to pay 10k mana to split what amounts to a Flash Heal crit between 6 people then go ahead and keep casting Sanctuary in your raids. It makes it real easy to tell who the horribad Holy Priests are.

And that new graphic looks awful.


Your post confuses me. Mine is healing me for about 650-700 per tick. Each tick gets Mastery, putting it at 650-700x1.2 per tick, or 780-800 per tick, per player. That is 7020-7200 healing over the duration of the spell. If 6 players stand in it you're looking at 42-43k healed across those 6 players, not factoring in Crits (and you can probably expect at least 1-2 per player). If more players stand in it the total healing amount goes down but I find it hard to believe it makes it useless (would have to check next time I have 10 standing in it I guess). Either way, that is more healing on those players than if I did not cast it.

And.... don't get me wrong. The spell could use some improvements. It's fairly mana intensive for what it provides. I am just saying you are greatly exaggerating when you say it only heals for what amounts to a Flash Heal crit. For comparison sake it heals about what a CoH cast would over a longer period of time and for 5.1k more mana. If anything the mana cost is the issue, not the healing....


The reality is the actual effective healing of HW: Sanctuary is much, much lower than 40k for the vast majority of the encounters. I think feud is probably the only mechanic that permits this spell to do that much healing. Even in this best case scenario it's still not a very compelling heal. Two PoH's will do far more HPM.

The whole argument that HW:S somehow has high "healing per cast", or that it will become more useful as you have mana to waste is bunch of bologna. Priests will never have mana to waste. They didn't have mana to waste even at the end of Wrath. Also 90+% of the time HW:S doesn't have high healing per cast. Feud is probably the only instance where that's actually true.

I really wish there was some way to see how many times a Priest cast HW:S in WoL. If you were to see the averaged out healing per cast, and look at how much mana you're spending per cast, the terribleness of this spell would be extremely obvious. The Priest I play with use to drop HW:S all the time, and even though he was smart about when he used it and where he used it, it usually only accounted for ~5% of his healing. His effective HPM was abysmal.
Edited by Highbeams on 3/28/2011 8:37 AM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3210
03/28/2011 8:02 AMPosted by Pleiades
Either way, that is more healing on those players than if I did not cast it.


This is not true. You're paying an opportunity cost in terms of mana spent. Mana spent on HW:Sanctuary cannot be used for Prayer of Healing or Circle of Healing, both of which get more healing out of the same amount of mana. You increase your short-term throughput with HW:Sanctuary, but reduce the overall long-term healing you can do in an encounter.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3210
That attitude doesn't fit the game, and in my opinion, the game would stagnate if so. We were pretty good without lightwell use. I'd hazard a guess that hardly any priest took lightwell pre cataclysm. We functioned very well without lightwell. They still improved it to the point where it's the best healing hot in the game bar none.


My personal preference would have been, to be honest, if they had abandoned Lightwell. It is very mana-efficient and situationally useful (e.g., Furious Roar on Halfus), but I'm not even convinced that having DPS divide their attention between encounter mechanics and using the Lightwell is an unmitigated good. If it disappeared tomorrow, I couldn't care less.

I think in general, they made Lightwell work because they wanted to show that they could make it attractive despite general player dislike, not because it was ever the pinnacle of game design.

In general, though, they haven't really cared about a spell being very situational and underused. It just comes with the territory of classes that have a large spell repertoire. Witness, for example, this statement by Ghostcrawler about Healing Touch in WotLK:

"Likewise, we think Healing Touch is fine. You use it at low levels and you use it with Nature’s Swiftness. Maybe you use it when healing a 5-player dungeon. Druids have a lot of heals and if we made Healing Touch more usable it would come at the expense of another heal like Nourish or Regrowth. The problem again is the talents. It doesn’t make sense to have so many talents support a situational spell."

You could write a similar statement for HW:Sanctuary, just switching out spell names and the precise circumstances of its use. Like, this:

"Likewise, we think Holy Word: Sanctuary is fine. You use it when you need more throughput than other AE heals can produce. Maybe you use it when healing a 5-player dungeon. Holy priests have a lot of heals and if we made Holy Word: Sanctuary more usable it would come at the expense of another heal like Prayer of Healing or Circle of Healing."

Just to be clear, this is totally made up by me -- Ghostcrawler never said this. But it's perfectly analogous.
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100 Gnome Priest
8850
Um, have you not been following this thread at all? Essentially, HW:S isn't being used anyway. So what we're looking at right now is avoidance of a spell due to crappy throughput, high mana cost and inefficient utility. In my suggestion, instead of the strict avoidance of an ability that is virtually worthless in comparison to almost any other priest aoe spell, it'd be cast based off of RNG and would sometimes benefit those surrounding the player affected.

Keep in mind, it was only a suggestion. It's not like I sat down for breakfast and mulled through this as if it were an important business proposal. =/ I could've easily suggested that it'd be based off of the primary bounce or even the cast of PoM itself to grant the Sanctuary effect. Both of those (the latter being more so) would have more control of where the ring would appear. But I thought it'd be more interesting and dynamic in the aforementioned reply.


Some fights I don't use flash heal, actually I've had some raids i've never used flash heal... is it broken? does wow need to fix it? No obviously.... just like HW:S its situatioinal....
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69 Human Paladin
810
Your post confuses me. Mine is healing me for about 650-700 per tick. Each tick gets Mastery, putting it at 650-700x1.2 per tick, or 780-800 per tick, per player. That is 7020-7200 healing over the duration of the spell. If 6 players stand in it you're looking at 42-43k healed across those 6 players, not factoring in Crits (and you can probably expect at least 1-2 per player). If more players stand in it the total healing amount goes down but I find it hard to believe it makes it useless (would have to check next time I have 10 standing in it I guess). Either way, that is more healing on those players than if I did not cast it.

And.... don't get me wrong. The spell could use some improvements. It's fairly mana intensive for what it provides. I am just saying you are greatly exaggerating when you say it only heals for what amounts to a Flash Heal crit. For comparison sake it heals about what a CoH cast would over a longer period of time and for 5.1k more mana. If anything the mana cost is the issue, not the healing....


Read the tooltip it caps out at six people. 10 people can stand in it all day but only 6 will receive any negligible amount of healing. The rest of the healing done is so small it's absolutely laughable.

I just dropped it in the auction house in my city and here's the numbers that came back to me according to my scrolling combat text. I have pretty decent gear as well mind you, including some heroic pieces.

4934 HW:S
213 EoL
4811 HW: S
5172 HW: S
4904 HW: S
226 EoL
4572 HW: S
247 EoL
4900 HW: S
246 EoL
4927 HW: S
243 EoL

This is a grand total of 35,395 healing for the cost of 10k+ mana spread across 23 players.

The spell is terrible. I don't use it on Feud, I don't use it on Red Phase and I have both these bosses down on heroic. You are better off throughput and mana-wise rotating PoM, CoH, and PoH in the Sanctuary chakra.
Edited by Roswynn on 3/28/2011 1:50 PM PDT
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85 Night Elf Priest
9215
Um, have you not been following this thread at all? Essentially, HW:S isn't being used anyway. So what we're looking at right now is avoidance of a spell due to crappy throughput, high mana cost and inefficient utility. In my suggestion, instead of the strict avoidance of an ability that is virtually worthless in comparison to almost any other priest aoe spell, it'd be cast based off of RNG and would sometimes benefit those surrounding the player affected.

Keep in mind, it was only a suggestion. It's not like I sat down for breakfast and mulled through this as if it were an important business proposal. =/ I could've easily suggested that it'd be based off of the primary bounce or even the cast of PoM itself to grant the Sanctuary effect. Both of those (the latter being more so) would have more control of where the ring would appear. But I thought it'd be more interesting and dynamic in the aforementioned reply.


Some fights I don't use flash heal, actually I've had some raids i've never used flash heal... is it broken? does wow need to fix it? No obviously.... just like HW:S its situatioinal....


This is a bad analogy.

Just because you're not finding opportunities to use FH doesn't mean that there aren't whole encounters or even whole instances that can't make use of the spell. That's just flat out wrong. Maybe a 5 man heroic you might not cast it, but in most cases, I can find a reason to cast it in any heroic 25 man or even 10 man raid encounter.
Edited by Iove on 3/28/2011 2:17 PM PDT
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85 Night Elf Priest
8745
Yesterday's 10man Herioc Chimaeron....

~41000 healed for the kill was from sanctuary
it was casted for the first 4 feuds where all but the tank would be standing in it.
thats over 9000 mana per sanctuary

i'll be honest, that spell was a total waste of time. my coh heals for that much with that many people under 50% from the 12% bonus on the talent in holy.

coh is what 3600ish mana?

so with just rough numbers, ~9000x4 santuaries = ~36000 mana vs ~3600 mana from 1 coh

i will never bother casting that spell again in its current form, my mana pool will thank me.

if they want to put a filler spell there thats ok by me, poh+coh in sanctuary chakra is extremely powerful and i wouldnt want to trade that for a ghetto healing rain.

not to mention that your mastery is worthless on hw:sanc

my 2c
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100 Gnome Priest
8850
Yesterday's 10man Herioc Chimaeron....

~41000 healed for the kill was from sanctuary
it was casted for the first 4 feuds where all but the tank would be standing in it.
thats over 9000 mana per sanctuary

i'll be honest, that spell was a total waste of time. my coh heals for that much with that many people under 50% from the 12% bonus on the talent in holy.

coh is what 3600ish mana?

so with just rough numbers, ~9000x4 santuaries = ~36000 mana vs ~3600 mana from 1 coh

i will never bother casting that spell again in its current form, my mana pool will thank me.

if they want to put a filler spell there thats ok by me, poh+coh in sanctuary chakra is extremely powerful and i wouldnt want to trade that for a ghetto healing rain.

not to mention that your mastery is worthless on hw:sanc

my 2c


No ones saying its mana efficient but its better hpct than just spamming PoH, CoH, and PoM
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85 Undead Priest
1150
sanc isnt meant to be efficient, it's meant as a throughput boost.

Like how many flashes to weave in, you now have to choose between your efficient, slow throughput AoE healing rotation (mending/prayer with CoH on cooldown) and boosting that throughput pretty significantly (mending/Sanctuary/prayer with CoH on c/d).

We already have pretty amazing aoe effic; blizz wanted us to have to choose between efficiency and throughput on this one.
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