Frost PvE Guide (5.4)

100 Draenei Death Knight
16055
What your take on the IBT/UP debate @ EJ atm Tar?

http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t110296-frost_dps_cataclysm_4_0_6_my_life/p17/#post1908100

Starts off pretty wrong but then goes places with sim data.........


Looking over that discussion, as best as I can follow it, there may be something in that idea. But this particular guide is meant for players newer to Frost, so I would want to make sure that it shakes down to a DPS increase in less-than-BiS gear as well. Plus, a shorter cooldown on BT is useless unless you remember to use it, which is another thing you have to figure in for non-hardcore players, especially if the DPS increase is minimal. All that said, I will likely mention it if it gains widespread support.

Now, this whole stack-haste-as-DW thing is something I'm paying a lot of attention to.
Edited by Taruun on 4/26/2011 2:40 AM PDT
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85 Draenei Death Knight
11365
"Mr. Chekov, Fire All Phasers"
This macro pops everything at once: Pillar of Frost, Raise Dead, and both your trinkets (which the macro language simply calls 13 and 14). If you want to add more spells - such as Blood Tap or Empower Rune Weapon - simply add another line starting with "/cast" in the order you want.


/cast Pillar of Frost
/cast Raise Dead
/use 13
/use 14


You should rewrite this. Make it pillar, trinkets, then raise dead. Your pet will gain from your bonuses from your trinkets.
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85 Worgen Death Knight
2995
@taruun
the dps Loss you speak of is VERY minimal compared to actually having a free death rune every 30 seconds compared to having it every minute.
Say in a normal 10 man with top gear you can down magmaw in say 6 minutes.
that means you get 2 free runes per minute=12 runes during this whole fight = say 6 extra oblit compared to 3 extra oblits.
Of course i'd have to run some test and actually try this out but i can't be far off from the truth ^^
of course having the fullest uptime on your diseases is of course important but usually you have an extra UH rune to spend to plague strike to get the disease back up. Unless of course you just had a KM proc which you spend on oblit of course. To be completely honest with you, it could just be personal preference and I love having 2 free death runes per minute and I never seem to have trouble keeping my diseases up.


Sorry for wall of text :3 just trying to help your guide along of course.


EDIT: Also having an extra 3 obliterates means more RIME procs ^^ and more RP which of course means more FS which means a higher chance of getting free runes due to RE.
unless you think what i'm saying is wrong in some way it makes pretty clear sense to me ^^
Edited by Sebasaurus on 4/26/2011 3:01 AM PDT
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85 Tauren Death Knight
4905

Looking over that discussion, as best as I can follow it, there may be something in that idea. But this particular guide is meant for players newer to Frost, so I would want to make sure that it shakes down to a DPS increase in less-than-BiS gear as well. Plus, a shorter cooldown on BT is useless unless you remember to use it, which is another thing you have to figure in for non-hardcore players, especially if the DPS increase is minimal. All that said, I will likely mention it if it gains widespread support.

Now, this whole stack-haste-as-DW thing is something I'm paying a lot of attention to.


Fair call on the less than BiS, thought i'd point it out as the idea's there and here are going to clash and be argued/discussed at some point :/
Edited by Avengingbeef on 4/26/2011 3:07 AM PDT
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90 Goblin Death Knight
8930
4.1 made tunneling as frost much easier

wish I rolled a more difficult class to play
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1 Orc Warrior
0
4.1 made tunneling as frost much easier

wish I rolled a more difficult class to play


That you for your input Mr. PvPhero. Feel free to re-roll any time.
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90 Draenei Priest
4910
Great guide, liked and sticky requested.
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
6350
Awesome guide!!! Thank you. :)
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100 Draenei Death Knight
16055
Joolz: Good catch, thanks! Change made.

Sebasaurus: I do get all that, and it does make sense. Essentially, though, it gives you one additional Death rune per minute at the cost of having to spend one additional Unholy rune per minute to keep up Blood Plague. (And unless you time your disease refreshes near-perfectly, you're either flying without diseases for a few seconds or spending yet another Unholy rune.) Maybe I'm just an old stick-in-the-mud who doesn't want to pay for a respec, but how much of a DPS increase is this, especially for someone who's not necessarily a min-maxer?

Given that the EJ Frost thread is up, I will make the changes to bring DW into Unholy Presence as well.

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85 Worgen Death Knight
2995
04/26/2011 09:22 AMPosted by Taruun
Sebasaurus: I do get all that, and it does make sense. Essentially, though, it gives you one additional Death rune per minute at the cost of having to spend one additional Unholy rune per minute to keep up Blood Plague. (And unless you time your disease refreshes near-perfectly, you're either flying without diseases for a few seconds or spending yet another Unholy rune.) Maybe I'm just an old stick-in-the-mud who doesn't want to pay for a respec, but how much of a DPS increase is this, especially for someone who's not necessarily a min-maxer?



I think, to be honest they can both play out to be equal or maybe one is a bit ahead. I just don't ever have a problem with diseases so I decided that having improved BT would be so much beneficial to me as a whole.


don't you think spending once unholy rune every once in a while to get alot more oblits is worth it?

I do!
I didn't see the EJ people actually look into what we're debating about here, which kinda sucks
Edited by Sebasaurus on 4/26/2011 10:16 AM PDT
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85 Worgen Death Knight
6330
Very helpful stuff! Been worrying about switching from UH once 4.1 goes live, but this clarifies pretty much every question I had.

*sticky requested*
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100 Draenei Death Knight
16055
Sebasaurus: yeah, that's what I thought. To argue your side of it, grabbing IBT also means grabbing 1 additional point in Butchery, so that will also do something to the DPS...

...you know what? I'll rewrite the talent section to mention them both, along with the recommendation that EJ gives to the IBT build. If I get shown additional info that shows it's a significant DPS increase with less-than-BiS gear, I'll delete the other section.

I'll also add a What Has Changed section to the end of the guide.
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85 Worgen Death Knight
2995
Sebasaurus: yeah, that's what I thought. To argue your side of it, grabbing IBT also means grabbing 1 additional point in Butchery, so that will also do something to the DPS...

...you know what? I'll rewrite the talent section to mention them both, along with the recommendation that EJ gives to the IBT build. If I get shown additional info that shows it's a significant DPS increase with less-than-BiS gear, I'll delete the other section.

I'll also add a What Has Changed section to the end of the guide.


:) I'm glad we worked it out. I love IBT :3
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85 Goblin Death Knight
3335
Thanks alot for this guide, it helps alot!
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85 Troll Death Knight
0
The EJ thread is probably worth following just to see if people think of anything new and worthwhile, like usual.

With a grain of salt, like usual.
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100 Draenei Death Knight
16055
Bumpidy bump bump so that more players can see it - I see the threads with simple answers cropping up again.

WTB sticky. :(
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85 Goblin Death Knight
4535
I have a question, I reforged everything to Haste and started using Unholy presence and did everything EJ and others have posted.

Is there a possibility of having to much haste?

I have 73% haste, 14.19 mastery, but only 2.96% crit. I have been trying stuff out on training dummys for hours and over a 20 minute span I average 16.6k dps in unholy presence with the IBT spec. I did a little less with epidemic spec.

Is 16.6k on a dummy over 20 minutes that good? I know it's higher then it was pre 4.1 but the way some people are talking they are doing much higher numbers.

I know training dummys aren't the best test before anyone says that. I also did 20.5k on the BH boss yesterday, which doesn't seem to be OP like some have been claiming.
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100 Draenei Death Knight
16055
Speaking generally, no, you cannot have too much haste. You could have every heroic raid encounter on farm and be stacking haste and you still wouldn't have more than you could use.

I'm typing from my phone and can't inspect your personal setup, but 20k is acceptable for BH. Of course if your gear isn't as good as other people's, you won't do as much DPS as them.
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