Old Wow

85 Troll Shaman
6345
All I'm hearing here from the people that disliked Vanilla is "we have lives, but we want to be just as geared as those who put in the extra time and effort." Wish it was that easy in real life, "I don't have time to work, I am more interested in my hobbies." "Oh, ok! Well, put in 15m and we'll give you a full paycheck." Whine whine whine.
64 Undead Rogue
710
i agree with the OP except with 40 man raids, theyre just too tough to get around especially on low pop servers. everything else felt way better than it is now but there were some balance issues as well, TBC was still nice but way more casual friendly.

lots of people here bashing vanilla yet i think most of you really didnt play back then. none of the friends i have from vanilla play to this day and im sure its because of the direction WoW took not something on their part.
also, it is kind of funny that when WoW got most players hooked was in vanilla / TBC. im pretty sure numbers started going down after BC or maybe just werent going up fast as they were before.
so im curious as to why blizzard decided to focus on the more casual players considering their current model was already successful they could have just stick to it

also, i know most raids were seen by like 10% of the population so what? who cares?
knowing theres some awesome places that you probably wont get to see made it even more exciting (at least to me), more incentive to try harder and play more which is always something good for a game (maybe not for the gamer :p )
85 Troll Mage
11600
All I see in this post is about hunters and ammo. Is that really whats keeps people from realizing vanilla was in essence.. better? Cause the no ammo thing started shortly after SWP with the legendary.

Its called changes and evolution.

Rogues once had to buy poisons and mix them with various things to use them. Poisons once were short CD's. When you died poison's had to be reapplied. If anything rogues had it worse.

Again alot has changed, yet some for the better. But as a whole.. this game has become significantly weaker.

ps - I no longer have to conjure water for 30 minutes before raid for 40 people.. yay... I don't bring that up, why? cause its a small change.. to yes make my life alittle easier. But at the same time.. I'd rather conjure water for 30 minutes then carry ungrateful idiots in raids. Let alone have a more challenging atmosphere.
Edited by Yondame on 4/10/2011 2:21 PM PDT
80 Human Death Knight
1130


If there is no reason to mke 25s when 10s give the same loot, then why are a lot of people still doing 25s?

The epic fail is your statement, which is disregarded just by reality.

Its just as hard to down a boss with 10 people than with 25 (actually, most bosses are harder in 10) why would 25 give different loot? That's an epic fail.

VERY FEW PEOPLE did 40s without too much issue, which was the problem, most people couldn't actually even enter the dungeon because they couldn't gather the 40.

40 man raids are part of the past, like punched cards computers. They were inneficient, requiered more resources and had a lot more problems.


10 man is harder than 40 man because you have fewer abilities and zero wiggle room, no one can die, no one can mess up. 40 man in practice are harder because the best 40 players in your guild are not as good as the cherry-picked top 10 players in your guild.

40 man also face more IRL problems. If 10% of your 10-man is out sick every week, you're stuck finding 1 replacement player. If 10% of your 40-man is out sick every week, you're stuck finding 4 replacement players... not good.


Never said any different, all that i'm saying is that 10 man is better, because all the challenges in 10 man are game mechanics and encounter challenges, and the challenges in 40 man have nothing to do with the game, but with the organization of the raid and getting the people.

Therefore, 10/25 man is better.

Wrath was the closest to perfection wow had reached in his history, everyone have something to them, there were easy content to see for the masses and very hard encounters for the ones looking for real challenges.

Too bad blizzard decided to catter to the elitist that are only happy when they know others dont get to see the content and they do, instead of beign happy, completing the content themselves.
85 Troll Mage
11600
i agree with the OP except with 40 man raids, theyre just too tough to get around especially on low pop servers. everything else felt way better than it is now but there were some balance issues as well, TBC was still nice but way more casual friendly.

lots of people here bashing vanilla yet i think most of you really didnt play back then. none of the friends i have from vanilla play to this day and im sure its because of the direction WoW took not something on their part.
also, it is kind of funny that when WoW got most players hooked was in vanilla / TBC. im pretty sure numbers started going down after BC or maybe just werent going up fast as they were before.
so im curious as to why blizzard decided to focus on the more casual players considering their current model was already successful they could have just stick to it

also, i know most raids were seen by like 10% of the population so what? who cares?
knowing theres some awesome places that you probably wont get to see made it even more exciting (at least to me), more incentive to try harder and play more which is always something good for a game (maybe not for the gamer :p )


here, here.. totally agree. Also the fact you can have numerous accounts as you like. I have two accounts. I know some with 5 accounts. The ability to have as many as you like... let a person be limited to only one account per person. Watch the numbers fall faster then men kicked in the crotch.

I remember when WoW first came out they never expected the numbers to be so high. Server lock ups and maintenance for weeks, the first month was terrible. Why? Millions of people wanting to cram into only a certain amount of servers. No one expected wow to become what it did. Look at the first year, let alone 5 years of customer's coming to the game. Now look at the decrease of people since. Especially loyal fans like me. That in itself speaks volumes for the game doing downhill.

People don't get it. They won't get it. And the game's population will drop even more with D3, starcraft 2 expac, etc. And yes.. I god willing and pray for it nightly for the titan MMO with all the original WOW dev team to come out that much sooner... why? cause the original wow dev team>now.
80 Human Death Knight
1130
04/10/2011 02:08 PMPosted by Polytheism
All I'm hearing here from the people that disliked Vanilla is "we have lives, but we want to be just as geared as those who put in the extra time and effort." Wish it was that easy in real life, "I don't have time to work, I am more interested in my hobbies." "Oh, ok! Well, put in 15m and we'll give you a full paycheck." Whine whine whine.


In real life, who gets paid the most, the workers that put a lot of effort and work more time than the executives or the executives, that work less and with less effort but with less repetitive tasks and needing to think more?

If anyone that works 16 hours in RL with a repetitive task earns double what an executive working 8-9 hours then you would have a valid analogy.

Rewarding the fact of spending huge time doing an easy-repetitive task IS NOT what the world is about.
85 Troll Mage
11600


10 man is harder than 40 man because you have fewer abilities and zero wiggle room, no one can die, no one can mess up. 40 man in practice are harder because the best 40 players in your guild are not as good as the cherry-picked top 10 players in your guild.

40 man also face more IRL problems. If 10% of your 10-man is out sick every week, you're stuck finding 1 replacement player. If 10% of your 40-man is out sick every week, you're stuck finding 4 replacement players... not good.


Never said any different, all that i'm saying is that 10 man is better, because all the challenges in 10 man are game mechanics and encounter challenges, and the challenges in 40 man have nothing to do with the game, but with the organization of the raid and getting the people.

Therefore, 10/25 man is better.

Wrath was the closest to perfection wow had reached in his history, everyone have something to them, there were easy content to see for the masses and very hard encounters for the ones looking for real challenges.

Too bad blizzard decided to catter to the elitist that are only happy when they know others dont get to see the content and they do, instead of beign happy, completing the content themselves.


LOL? I dunno which is funnier. The fact that its stated 10 man no one can die.. or you can't down a boss (have seen and done differently). Or the fact its stated wrath was perfection of wow!?!? Yes.... going in with greens and blues and killing all of naxx for people.. yeah perfection. Only thing in Wrath near even being compared to decency was Ulduar.
the only thing I miss from vanilla is the epic class quests.


... but not the water totem quest...
Edited by Bomber on 4/10/2011 2:38 PM PDT
80 Human Death Knight
1130



Never said any different, all that i'm saying is that 10 man is better, because all the challenges in 10 man are game mechanics and encounter challenges, and the challenges in 40 man have nothing to do with the game, but with the organization of the raid and getting the people.

Therefore, 10/25 man is better.

Wrath was the closest to perfection wow had reached in his history, everyone have something to them, there were easy content to see for the masses and very hard encounters for the ones looking for real challenges.

Too bad blizzard decided to catter to the elitist that are only happy when they know others dont get to see the content and they do, instead of beign happy, completing the content themselves.


LOL? I dunno which is funnier. The fact that its stated 10 man no one can die.. or you can't down a boss (have seen and done differently). Or the fact its stated wrath was perfection of wow!?!? Yes.... going in with greens and blues and killing all of naxx for people.. yeah perfection. Only thing in Wrath near even being compared to decency was Ulduar.


Wrath was so easy that you didnt do alone in the dark and LK heroic till december 2010, amirite?

how hypocrits the ones that say wrath was easy, only 1% of raiders can say that, less than the number that beaten SWP before Wrath came out, and LK was there more than 8 months with a 30% buff, who would have imagine that...

Oh, and i never said that in 10 mans no one can die.
Edited by Semerov on 4/10/2011 2:44 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Paladin
10095
Every expansion the game improves upon and fixes multiple problems more and more, but every expansion, the grip on what you can do gets tighter and tighter. It's horrible right now.

I completely agree with many aspects being much better then vanilla, but I can sympathize with those that miss it. Yes there are some rose colored goggles at play, but there was many better aspects about it.

The game was much more unique, you had two factions, each distinct in many ways sharing a common hatred for one another. Each class had very unique abilities exclusive to that class (Rose colored goggles hide then each class had a lot of terrible useless things to them as well). The world was much more open and dangerous. With no cross realm dungeons and BGs and no paid services, it was important to keep your characters name(s) clean, you ninja'ed? You had to suffer the consequences or make a new character.

The problem these people have with the game now it that it has become too grey, I always hear about "Oh the (enemy) faction is the same thing" which is true, but in those days, it also wasn't. Classes have all the same abilities as each other. Etc.

The game has had many improvements, but at the cost of taking that "open world" feel to it, the current environment is too controlled. Some people do not miss this and enjoy the new improvements and will say how much vanilla sucked, others do miss this aspect and say how the game is gotten worse, seeing as it's opinion, both sides are right, and that is why I can see where each is coming from.
Edited by Ethlin on 4/10/2011 2:53 PM PDT
82 Troll Druid
1210
all i keep hearing is that the oldies want to havepeople only earn gear. and im tired of it, you want to f****** earn somthing?! go get a job intead of playign 24/7! this games purpose is to be enjoyable, not the *I FEEL SPECIAL* button, the old wow and toays all have their ups and down, but the majority want a game that is fun and enjoyable not, this is a freaking pain!, oh, i guess the 34 days is worth this peice of virtual armor that i can act all that about and troll about!, ex, who remembers thunderfury? my point exactly, i can go on and on, but i wont, if you dont like the game, stop playing instead of ruining it for the rest of us
Edited by Jenti on 4/10/2011 2:47 PM PDT
90 Undead Priest
0
ok, sorry to bring this up.

I used to play wow in 2005-2006 and it was capped at lvl 60. Back in the day was so much better than now. I feel current wow is now too easy, and a lot of the complexities erased for the ease of the less intelligent.


While I agree that vanilla wow was an amazing experience, i disagree with you partially. you state that current wow is too easy and a lot of the complexity has been erased. Personally, I have found end game content to be satisfyingly challenging, and personally, I find the complexity of raiding in cata to be comparibly greater than that of Molten Core.

However, unlike in vanilla, when leveling was actually a challenge and hitting the level cap felt like an achievement, I will agree that the leveling aspect of the game has become complete easy mode.


Ex:
No more 40 man raids (yes they were hard to coordinate, but that was what made it challenging and fun and rewarding)

No more Class specialization... remember when you needed a dwarf priest just for Fear ward. Now any 5 paladins can do a group run and complete the instance.

No more ammo....this seems to be for those who couldn't remember to bring arrows or bullets...making it easy...


Although I too feel that removing ammo from the game was a bad move that didn't even make sense logically, the transition away from 40 man raids and class specialization aren't necessarily bad things. although I loved 40 man raids back in the day, 10/25 man raiding makes the game more accessable to players without making it "easier". furthermore, although the loss of class specialization basically caused the unbalanced ratio between dps and healers/tanks, it has made the game more enjoyable.


Rep easier to get... remember when you would grind something for months and finally get the item...you were one in 5 on the server with the item. Now anyone if they spend two hours can get what everyone else has. I am hardcore...I want something I spend a lot of time at and no one else has.


although blizzard has unfortunately turned away from the more hardcore player base in recent years, i feel the raid scene is still a perfectly enjoyable experience for the more hardcore players, especially when compared to everything in wrath outside of Ulduar.

I guess what I am saying, is the game is much easier and it is sad to see what I would put so much time into (doing calculations, finding groups, having pride in what I did) is no longer in the game.

doing calculations, finding groups, and having pride in your wow experience can still be a part of the game. there is no reason why you shouldn't do those calculations that can help you get that little extra boost in dps, healing, or threat generation. those calculations are just no longer manditory.

I wonder if Blizzard will ever put challenge back into the game...maybe make an expansion that is like the old days.


they did...it's called Cata. perhaps you weren't here for the faceroll that was known as Wrath of the Lich King, but in terms of raiding, Cataclysm is perhaps so far the hardest expansion pack we've had yet.
85 Troll Mage
11600


LOL? I dunno which is funnier. The fact that its stated 10 man no one can die.. or you can't down a boss (have seen and done differently). Or the fact its stated wrath was perfection of wow!?!? Yes.... going in with greens and blues and killing all of naxx for people.. yeah perfection. Only thing in Wrath near even being compared to decency was Ulduar.


Wrath was so easy that you didnt do alone in the dark and LK heroic till december 2010, amirite?

how hypocrits the ones that say wrath was easy, only 1% of raiders can say that, less than the number that beaten SWP before Wrath came out, and LK was there more than 8 months with a 30% buff, who would have imagine that...

Oh, and i never said that in 10 mans no one can die.


You're posting on a level 80 DK, talking to my 2nd account. Which still far exceeds even you. Post on your main (if the dk isn't alrdy it, lolz) and I MIGHT if the main is better then me.. post on my 1st account. Which then would set your demise in stone.

Also l2read you got quoted, after you quoted.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14115
Cata is like Vanilla, but better.

The Raids in Cata are Epic, it really feels like it did in Vanilla, before we all became jaded.

I really think Cata has revitalized this game for me, it all feels new again.
88 Draenei Paladin
6090
04/08/2011 05:53 PMPosted by Mishotem
So why did Cata make it LESS accessible?


This. I'm tired of replacing longtime friends with elitist jerkholes in my raids. The fact that you can now finish most of the game up until raiding without actually talking to another person is bad enough, but now that some people I'm used to raiding with aren't making the cut, that aspect of the game has lost its appeal for me as well.
The thing I miss about classic is that the game just felt epic. Everything had a place, and you spent more time in the world rather than in the cities.

Being anywhere between level 10 and 59, you were still a part of the game since the whole world mattered instead of putting on BoAs and madly grinding through the levels just so you could be at endgame content. And when you were at max level, you still did some lower level things because they still held significance. Classes had their own unique perks and quests, like paladin/warlock mount, hunter and priest quests for epic items, etc. Hell, there were long quest chains for epic items, and they were hard, and you felt good about the epic you got. Instances were very much a part of the world too; quests frequently led you to do something special or unique inside an instance you couldn't do otherwise. Quests were quests, not daily chores, and usually had an epic ending to them. But instances were actual places, not a linear road you follow with trash in the way of your loot. World PvP existed. Class dungeon sets helped you gear for raiding, and even moreso when you did the quest chain to upgrade said dungeon set. Weapons had flavor, instead of being stat sticks.

Classic had no shortage of downsides still; 40 people was too many, the organization of the raid was a challenge in itself, an unnecessary one. Rep grinds were awfully long. Some of the classes were left without an epic quest chain. Some quest chains were too long. Some dungeons were too large to be easily accessible (But I love you anyways, BRD!). Mats for epic items were far too rare and expensive, and required far too many of said mats. Progression of raids was far too steep. Resistance gear got in the way of real gear. Lots of items had stats that were so obscure that they were never used. And many, many other things.

It seems to me they gutted out the things I mentioned in the first paragraph to make things easier for the second paragraph as well. Why can't there be a balance? Quest chains were too long, so they just gutted quest chains altogether instead of just shortening them some. Mats for epic items have been reduced to flavorlessness with just bars and some shiny orb; why couldn't they have just reduced the mats there too? Weapons with procs were hard to balance, so they just got rid of them. Why not have simpler procs? Instances were too long, so they cut them down to just run in, kill, loot, get out, even to the point where no quests would even send you to the instance, you only go there for your daily heroic. Some classes had some epic quest chains for loot or whatever, while others did not. Instead of giving these kinds of quest chains to all classes, they simply removed them all. Now there's less distinction between classes. All items were normalized and no longer do items appear with odd selections of stats; but now it seems that every piece of gear isn't very different from the rest.

I hope I made my point clear; they over simplified things instead of adjusting it to be reasonable. There seems to be no effort to balance the two.
Edited by Maeltum on 4/10/2011 3:22 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Paladin
10095
Cata is like Vanilla, but better.


Did you even play vanilla? Whether you loved or hated vanilla, it was nothing like Cata.
20 Orc Shaman
190
Bring back the BC dev team.

Let the Wrath team work on Titan instead.

WoW > Titan! A FPS MMO? Really? lol
80 Human Death Knight
1130


Wrath was so easy that you didnt do alone in the dark and LK heroic till december 2010, amirite?

how hypocrits the ones that say wrath was easy, only 1% of raiders can say that, less than the number that beaten SWP before Wrath came out, and LK was there more than 8 months with a 30% buff, who would have imagine that...

Oh, and i never said that in 10 mans no one can die.


You're posting on a level 80 DK, talking to my 2nd account. Which still far exceeds even you. Post on your main (if the dk isn't alrdy it, lolz) and I MIGHT if the main is better then me.. post on my 1st account. Which then would set your demise in stone.

Also l2read you got quoted, after you quoted.


So what if i get quoted after i qote? the fact is that i never said that in 10 man no one can die.

Oh, and i am not the one saying that wrath was easy, so i dont need to have a better account than you to tell you that it wasn't, because in fact only 1.6% of raiding people downed LK H AFTER 8 months and a 30% buff, and very very few people did alone in the dark withint its tier. Two different tier where only very very few people actually completed it is enough to say it wasn't that easy.

Problem is too many hipocrits say it was, and too many people feel like they can be called pros if they repeat that crap.
90 Undead Priest
0
Oh, and i am not the one saying that wrath was easy, so i dont need to have a better account than you to tell you that it wasn't, because in fact only 1.6% of raiding people downed LK H AFTER 8 months and a 30% buff, and very very few people did alone in the dark withint its tier. Two different tier where only very very few people actually completed it is enough to say it wasn't that easy.

Problem is too many hipocrits say it was, and too many people feel like they can be called pros if they repeat that crap.


I agree that Ulduar was a very satisfying experience. however, part of the reason that so few people got alone in the darkness was partially because Ulduar wasn't given enough time as a raid, which was actually why we were stuck with nothing but ICC for an entire year.

furthermore, in regards to your Heroic LK claim, I am interested to know where you got that number. are you refering to both 10 man and 25 man LK? and what do you mean by "raiding people"?
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