Old Wow

80 Human Death Knight
1130
Oh, and i am not the one saying that wrath was easy, so i dont need to have a better account than you to tell you that it wasn't, because in fact only 1.6% of raiding people downed LK H AFTER 8 months and a 30% buff, and very very few people did alone in the dark withint its tier. Two different tier where only very very few people actually completed it is enough to say it wasn't that easy.

Problem is too many hipocrits say it was, and too many people feel like they can be called pros if they repeat that crap.


I agree that Ulduar was a very satisfying experience. however, part of the reason that so few people got alone in the darkness was partially because Ulduar wasn't given enough time as a raid, which was actually why we were stuck with nothing but ICC for an entire year.

furthermore, in regards to your Heroic LK claim, I am interested to know where you got that number. are you refering to both 10 man and 25 man LK? and what do you mean by "raiding people"?


Numbers are from stadistics of wowprogres, that's why i mean raiding people, those that don't raid dont show up there.

Both Ulduar hard modes and ICC H where challenging experiences, i agree that Naxx and ToGC were not that much, but thats another problem, Naxx was released exactly as before, therefore a lot of people have a lot of expericence in the fiths and mechanics were not updated. ToGC was an awfull patch, but that was not the whole expansion.

Wrath was prfect because everyone have what they wanted, everyone get to see the content, everyone had great challenges, the only ones that didn't have what they wanted were the elitists that don't want others to see what they get to see.
85 Orc Mage
4865
I find it funny that it is very rare for a 2800 arena player or a 13/13 raider to complain about the game being too easy. Every time there's a QQ post it's a troll or a 5 man champion complaining about things like rep. If anyone has the right to complain about a game being easy it would be someone who makes it look easy.

Imagine if they made a new raid version of MC without changing the fights, only scaling up the health and damage. It would be the easiest raid since.... well..... MC.

I'm still not convinced the OP isn't a troll.
85 Human Paladin
4970
If only the devs understood the fact that we don't like what they've turned this game into. =/
Thanks for changing every mechanic because you thought it was 'boring' or 'broken.'

PvP wise this game has gotten so damn terrible. I can't explain how much anti fun it is to roll out all my aff lock's dot on someone, put CoE on them, haunt, pop demon soul, and watch my dots crit for 3k if that. This is so damn boring. This is the worst incarnation of WoW PvP I have ever seen. Worst than Arcane ToEP/ZHC mages, worst than WOTLK burst fest. I can't stand pvping on my lock because I feel so helpless. Can't kill healers, can't kill DPS.

PvE wise this game is fun in some degrees, but the homogenization makes every class feel like a rigid clone of each other, the only difference being in playstyle.
04/08/2011 06:00 PMPosted by Ethlin
Only thing better then was the world had a more "open" feel, a smaller server-only community, and factions and classes being distinct.


This is the essence that made vanilla better than now. I played on Azshara server for several years.. and until the lfd tool came into effect, still had this experience. Now its gone for good. Goodbye wow. hello R*FT.
85 Worgen Druid
10415
I've raided since vanilla days albiet always on a casual raid schedule(aside from about 6 months I spent on Blackrock). This game even for casual raiders requires a huge time commitment. My guild right now has 3 ten man raids. My raid does 6 hours a week (tue/thur 3 hrs each), the 2nd raid does 7 hours a week(sun/mon 3hrs & wed 1 hr), and the 3rd raid does 1 night a week for 3 hours.

My raid is currently 6/12, the 2nd raid is 5/12 and the 3rd raid is 1/12. Our guild had to ask some of our wrath raiders to step out of the raiding scene at the start because they just couldn't pull the numbers we needed. Those of us who are currently raiding aside from the 6-7 hours spent each week in the raid, spend at least 1-2 hours a night running heroics for conquest points and on the weekends several hours farming mats for fish feasts/flasks and various other things. In all as a causal guild a typical raider spends on average at least 15 hours a week playing the game, this is equivalent to a part time job.

So essentially to maintain a solid raid of working adults you have to ask them to treat the game as a part time job. I'd hazard to guess for most "hardcore" raiders it is a full time job commitment. Regardless of how you feel about hardcore vs casual there is something fundamentally wrong with a game that requires a part time job commitment to it in order to participate in the end game raids even at a casual level.

Everyone loves to talk about "hardcore" vs "casual" and "skilled" vs "bads". No one ever really talks about the hours that the "hardcore" spend becoming "skilled" and how so many people who have participated in end game content have in a sense been required to have an addiction to it. At the end of the day being "skilled" in wow or any video game for that matter simply means you press buttons faster or in a better order then someone else and although I can attest (as a lifetime videos game player) that pressing buttons really fast in the right order and "winning" the game is fun and thrilling, ultimately it is not near as important as getting up from your computer and living your life outside of this imaginary game world, regardless of how fascinating and fun it can be at times.
1 Troll Priest
0
Fun is about challenge.
WoW is about making the game easier for the masses so that membership will go up.

Gamers with a choice aren't here. Gamers like me stuck in BFE want to play SOMEthing, so are stuck the this declining game.

I play mostly for the Massively Multiplayer part of the game. I see people that only want to solo stuff and makes me sad.


come to TOR when it drops in like a month we will gladly take you :)
85 Worgen Warrior
7250
I, for one, would like to think that asking for a difficult challenge that requires change and adaptation, as well as potentially many failures to get it right, isn't masochistic.

Challenges are fun. Things being too easy is not fun.

What about the idea of adding more multi-level difficulties? Not just 'normal and heroic' for raids and dungeons, but multiple tiers of difficulty ranging from easy and working their way up to hard, and not in such massive leaps and bounds that the players can't be expected to learn and adapt to the new situations?

The reason people play StarCraft 2 on Hard and Brutal, or Diablo 2 on Nightmare and Hell isn't because they're masochists, it's because they like to find themselves tested and pushed to the limit, forced to think and play in new ways to overcome the challenges!

You don't need to make the game easier for everyone. Multiple tiers of difficulty solves this problem. The people who want it easy and want to see all the content can, but give the other people who want it more difficult what they'd like to see as well. I know it's difficult to work with so many different wants, but Blizzard Entertainment is one of the best damn developers out there, and I have faith you guys can pull it off if you really try.
Edited by Hotara on 4/10/2011 6:34 PM PDT
85 Goblin Rogue
6870
I wonder if the people that say they miss Vanilla and BC raiding have ever wondered if they might just subconsciously be getting bored of a game they have been playing for 6 years straight? You know, the feeling that also invades your mind when you have had the same job for a while. If they were to bring everything back to Vanilla you'd still be just as bored as you are now.

The feeling of everything being so easy might also be due to the fact you have experienced countless different variations of abilities from encounters and just gotten better at avoiding bad situations if you are a seasoned raider.

People always blame game design on things that could simply be personal factor.

100% Nostalgia.
Edited by Quickstrike on 4/10/2011 7:00 PM PDT
63 Tauren Shaman
520
I understand and respect gaming masochism. But, I think that changing mechanics to be more reasonable and less punishing is an improvement, not a detriment, to games in general. Many of us Original Gamers pine for the days of D&D-based yore when games were seemingly intended to break us down into sobbing masses created by an uncaring necromancer of pain and suffering, or at least didn't try to avoid it. Overcoming all of the obstacles (I CHOOSE NOT TO SHOOT HER WITH THE SILVER ARROW... NOOOOO) was a big part of what gaming (I HAVE 1 LIFE!?), and especially PC gaming (HOW DO I LOAD MOUSE DRIVERS?), were about. But, I feel we're lucky to now be in an age where those ideals (intended or not) are giving way to actual fun, actual challenge, and not fabricating it through high-reach requirements (I NEED A FAIRY MONK WITH A MAGIC LOCKPICK?).

What we've always been trying to do, what WoW has always been about (and to which much of its success is due) is to make an accessible MMO. Anyone that looks back at the game at launch and wishes it was as challenging now as it was then is not aware of the painstaking effort put into making this game accessible as compared to its predecessors. Since release we've refined that intent, eventually evolving the very few masochistic designs WoW actually ever started with, but ideally still offering those same prestige goals that give that feeling of achieving something great if you're able to pull it off. We've made a lot of progress toward striking that balance and continuing to evolve the game, but it's not something we're ever likely to perfect, and we'll be constantly working to hit that elusive goal. Hopefully it's to the benefit of everyone playing and enjoying the game, and they'll continue to enjoy the journey that a living, breathing, persistent universe will take us on.

tell me another story about the fairy monk
After a long discussion with some vanilla players we settled that the issue with wow feeling too easy is progression. Not in the sense of having to smash your head against a boss over and over but in the sense of not having to do content.

The best example was one person thought Ulduar was the best raid in Wrath but quickly vanished. I took a few months off and never had to set foot in Ulduar because of the new badge/tier gear. It was simply like the raid didn't exist in the progression line. Sure I could go back and face roll it with people that out geared but that is the problem with 'too easy'. Being able to roll an alt and walk into ICC in a week makes everything before it utterly pointless. That doesn't mean the average player shouldn't be able to get there.

In Bc I took a few faction firsts and stopped for a while and returned later. I found a group of newbies just starting and trained them to raid and they were the third guild on the server to kill Illidan (badge gear came out partially through that but wasn't full next tier gear) . But, to get there they had to clear kara in their blue and heroic epics, tk, ssc, hyjal, then bt, and then work on sunwell. The guild downed Illidan almost 6 months after the first guild killed Illidan.

The time line was too long for the average person, but the complete opposite is what makes raiding feel like a joke (unless you are attempting to be one of the first guilds to do it).

Eliminating content by releasing welfare gear that is too powerful really kills the feeling of needing to try. This doesn't mean that we should go back to 5% of the server seeing the last bosses, but a middle ground where you have to progress gives a much greater sense of accomplishment-which is what many I've talked to agree wow is lacking. While I'm glad the badge system is gone, having different tiers of badges at least tried to maintain a sense of progression lines.

In vanilla I was proud to end in a few pieces of t1 and t2 because I earned it. I was proud to work through raids in bc. By the time I came back in wrath three drakes was a joke. Sure many people legitimately out geared the instance, but the rest of us, did practically nothing to get faceroll gear and that made it meaningless.

There is a difference between being carried by geared people and being carried by your own gear that you did practically nothing to obtain.

Also, eliminating the need to do earlier raids at all kills blizzards own content. The end of wrath felt stagnant because there wasn't much to do other than farm ICC. In bc there were still plenty of guilds making their way up the chain and pugs could be found for every tier of raiding. On my server, at the end of lich you could find icc pugs by the dozens, but good luck if you wanted to do any other raid-people badged their way out of having a reason.

Tl'tr: Welfare gear is nice and helpful, but releasing gear several tiers above some of the raids eliminates the need for progression which eliminates a sense of accomplishment which makes wow feel easy. A middle ground where a raiding guild can start five months late in an expansion, need to start with the bottom teirs, but move through them much quicker than the beginning of the expansion would give a sense of accomplishment and cause content to be outdated at a much slower rate.

Even people on the peak of progression when done could roll alts and need to do something other than grind heroics and hop in to icc to use wrath as an example.
Edited by Dothack on 4/10/2011 8:44 PM PDT
04/08/2011 05:49 PMPosted by Bashiok
I think that changing mechanics to be more reasonable and less punishing is an improvement, not a detriment, to games in general.


Thats why you'll never be captain Kiff.
Trying to engage World of Warcraft developers is a fruitless endevour. Over the years the blue responses to genuine heart-felt concerns have gone from grateful and considerate to the polytopical: "... that's not the direction we want to take/thats not how we intend the game to be played".

My optimisim far surpassed my friends. I read Ghostcrawlers blogs and posts, followed blue responses on the forums ... watching the gradual decline in player driven content, the decline in challenging game mechanics, the homogenisation of classes (yes it did happen) and the nerf-bat playing the 'Kids are Alright' song on the 'accessibility drum'.

I've invested five years in this game, all the while being an avid supporter of Blizzard - but this new idea of "refining content" has gotten out of hand.

What opportunities do I have to voice my concerns? The disfunctonal forums? Email? I've done those things - politely I might add.

My guild had about 30 unique accounts. We are all friends. We have all played for years ... and we've all cancelled our subscription as of several months ago.

Being the giddy sparkley-eyed Blizzard fan I am, I came back hoping to see some glimmer of hope ... ANY suggestion of change.

There's not ... no hint of the content described at the Blizzcon development panel ... no hint of the relentless class balancing slowing down.


I applaud you on your innovative game Blizzard, it was truly remarkable. But I'm very very disappointed in how your interaction with the community has changed over five years and the direction you've decided to take YOUR game.

It is yours after all. Yours. Yours. Yours. Yours.


My contribution to this thread is to voice your opinion with your credit card.
Edited by Skeldergate on 4/10/2011 9:17 PM PDT
92 Human Paladin
12565
I kinda liked the harder mmos with xp or item loss mostly because all the people who were terrible got frustrated and left so at max level everyone was at least semi competent.


I understand from a developer standpoint that it was lost profits but it was great for the playerbase and community.
80 Human Death Knight
1130
I, for one, would like to think that asking for a difficult challenge that requires change and adaptation, as well as potentially many failures to get it right, isn't masochistic.

Challenges are fun. Things being too easy is not fun.

What about the idea of adding more multi-level difficulties? Not just 'normal and heroic' for raids and dungeons, but multiple tiers of difficulty ranging from easy and working their way up to hard, and not in such massive leaps and bounds that the players can't be expected to learn and adapt to the new situations?

The reason people play StarCraft 2 on Hard and Brutal, or Diablo 2 on Nightmare and Hell isn't because they're masochists, it's because they like to find themselves tested and pushed to the limit, forced to think and play in new ways to overcome the challenges!

You don't need to make the game easier for everyone. Multiple tiers of difficulty solves this problem. The people who want it easy and want to see all the content can, but give the other people who want it more difficult what they'd like to see as well. I know it's difficult to work with so many different wants, but Blizzard Entertainment is one of the best damn developers out there, and I have faith you guys can pull it off if you really try.


Tiers are there, and Wrath used them almost to perfection, except for some hard modes beign easy (leviathan comes to mind) a lot of hard modes where REALLLY HARD (freya, firefighter and alone in the dark in their tier, Putricide and LK in ICC are some examples).

But it was not enough for the elitists. Problem with elitists is that is not that they want the challenge that much (as soon as you give them the chance they take springvale to courtyard, that is how they like challenge), they don't want others to see the content they are seeing, because they are elitists.

Blizzard greatest error was cater to them in Cata.

No one says there shouldn't be challenges, but all those games you talk about have an easy feature that lets you see THE WHOLE GAME. And you can even get all the items on easy, which is not what is being asked here. Are Starcraft 2 or Diablo 2 bad games because in easy you can get the same items and see the same game content than in nightmare?
Let alone the fact that in those games in order to win you only depend on your skill, not others.

Comparing single player games to mmo is not that simple, but the fact is that Wrath path was the correct one, let everyone see the content, and give everyone the possibility to do that content a lot more challenging.

Blizzard should stops listening to elitists and start catering to their costumers like they did in wrath.
Edited by Semerov on 4/11/2011 4:29 AM PDT
78 Tauren Druid
1280
i totally agree with everything. <3
90 Blood Elf Paladin
12050
04/10/2011 02:08 PMPosted by Polytheism
All I'm hearing here from the people that disliked Vanilla is "we have lives, but we want to be just as geared as those who put in the extra time and effort." Wish it was that easy in real life, "I don't have time to work, I am more interested in my hobbies." "Oh, ok! Well, put in 15m and we'll give you a full paycheck." Whine whine whine.

It's not that at all for me. I could honestly care less about whether I have to work hard and put in time and effort to get geared.

My main issue with the way that TBC (before the second set of badge gear was released) and Vanilla did it was the way progression was set up. I'll give you the example of the guild I was in during TBC. We had made it up the the Council in BT (pre-nerfs, pre-removal of attunement quests) when two of our healers decided to quit the game. My main at the time was a warlock, and we had plenty of DPS, so I was willing to switch to healing. Problem was that my paladin was only geared through T4, and had not completed the attunement quests for BT, which involved SSC/TK/MH quests. So, our guild had a choice, try to find healers who were attuned to BT already and not raiding (good luck), or go back and do T5 raids over and over until I was attuned and had enough gear to be able to raid.

We ended up falling apart before I was able to get geared up. No one wanted to go back and do that content again.

Vanilla was even worse. With the way some of the progressions were set up, not to mention the need to farm low level content for the resistance gear, and as many have said before: the way you could have no chance of raiding if one specific race/class combo wasn't present.

85 Night Elf Druid
4095
I'm surprised that Blues still respond or even make their presence shown on these neverending "How Vanilla Was Way Better" posts. Please lock the posts as soon as they get posted and spend more time gracing with your presence on more constructive posts. For those who keep creating these posts if you don't like the current state of the game now; there's a really easy solution, uninstall and stop playing it . K thanks bye
Edited by Shadowdremi on 4/11/2011 6:35 AM PDT
90 Human Paladin
9475
04/10/2011 06:31 PMPosted by Hotara
I, for one, would like to think that asking for a difficult challenge that requires change and adaptation, as well as potentially many failures to get it right, isn't masochistic.


It's really not. What is considered masochistic are traits like being unnecessarily long and tedious, or simply broken or unbalanced mechanics. For example, wanting a challenging boss that requires good spatial awareness, multitasking, resource management, and precision timing is not masochism, that's just fun gaming.

On the other hand, wanting an achievement that's dependent on grinding rare mobs with an incredibly low drop rate that realistically will take weeks if not months of tedious grinding would be masochism. Such wouldn't be a test of skill, and simply a test of endurance and having nothing better to do with one's free time.

So yes, challenging dungeons are all good. Long, tedious grind-fests would be masochistic, though.
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