Old Wow

90 Human Paladin
9475
04/12/2011 06:34 AMPosted by Floories
Rpg. Look up any rpg in the world. THEY'RE ALL HARD.


Have you played Dragon Age 2? For that matter, most RPGs I've played have been easy. Fallout 3? Easy. I'm rocking through Baldur's Gate II right now, it's easy. Oblivion is easy, any given Final Fantasy game is easy. Knights of the Old Republic is easy, Planescape: Torment is easy. I'm trying to think of any one great RPG that was truly difficult.

You cannot tell me that making a game easy makes it fun.
Read what Bash actually says, and he goes into some pretty specific examples. To point, there's a difference between legitimate challenge and simple tedious or poorly-tuned gameplay. A lot of what masochists think of as difficult makes games good in the same way that Superman 64 was a great game.

This game is meant to be HARD, not "I wanna play world of warcraft, oh look bunnies lets kill them and get purples"
The game is meant to be fun, with a mix of both elements. Raiding in particular poses a challenge for most people. Again, I question whether by HARD you just mean masochistic, tedious, or bad game mechanics.
90 Human Paladin
5770
I understand and respect gaming masochism. But, I think that changing mechanics to be more reasonable and less punishing is an improvement, not a detriment, to games in general. Many of us Original Gamers pine for the days of D&D-based yore when games were seemingly intended to break us down into sobbing masses created by an uncaring necromancer of pain and suffering, or at least didn't try to avoid it. Overcoming all of the obstacles (I CHOOSE NOT TO SHOOT HER WITH THE SILVER ARROW... NOOOOO) was a big part of what gaming (I HAVE 1 LIFE!?), and especially PC gaming (HOW DO I LOAD MOUSE DRIVERS?), were about. But, I feel we're lucky to now be in an age where those ideals (intended or not) are giving way to actual fun, actual challenge, and not fabricating it through high-reach requirements (I NEED A FAIRY MONK WITH A MAGIC LOCKPICK?).

What we've always been trying to do, what WoW has always been about (and to which much of its success is due) is to make an accessible MMO. Anyone that looks back at the game at launch and wishes it was as challenging now as it was then is not aware of the painstaking effort put into making this game accessible as compared to its predecessors. Since release we've refined that intent, eventually evolving the very few masochistic designs WoW actually ever started with, but ideally still offering those same prestige goals that give that feeling of achieving something great if you're able to pull it off. We've made a lot of progress toward striking that balance and continuing to evolve the game, but it's not something we're ever likely to perfect, and we'll be constantly working to hit that elusive goal. Hopefully it's to the benefit of everyone playing and enjoying the game, and they'll continue to enjoy the journey that a living, breathing, persistent universe will take us on.


We understand but let's get down to the real agenda..

...the whole catering to the soft core was to drive subs.....BLizzard, Vivendi...whoever realized there was a whole pool of casuals out there waiting to play WoW but we're intimidated by most MMORPGS and their complexities. Subsequently, Wow was dumb downed (It was Diablosized) . This kind of thinking reached it's pinnacle at WOTLK. Remember 'Epics for Everyone'? debate. I think Wow reached it's biggest appeal to the masses during this period.

Now it's been dialed back a notch and all the wrath babies are going WTH....what's CC? Why can't I faceroll bosses anymore. This isolates the Moms and Pops that don't have time to Youtube every boss or run every encounter 3-4 times before they understand the fight. I mean that's fine with me, I've been around since vanilla. I kinda like not running an instance in 10 mins like in WOTLK, there should always be a chance for failure.

That said, this game is still trying to be too much. Trying to be everything for everybody eventually means you really end up being 'nothing'. You can see it now, guilds are dying, the social interdependency that defines MMORPGs is dying in WoW. That,coupled with the fact that WoW is finally showing it's age, I think we're in for a rough patch the next year until the next expansion. Is WoW dead? Hell no. Is it in a recession? Just like the rest of the country.

I just wish that getting a epic or a nice peice of gear meant something. I remember when I got my GM Claymoore....it was envy of every warrior, paladin and that lasted a better part of the year. Even the Askandi users were jealous. EQ, was like that, when you got some epic gear, even though it was just some crappy retexture...everyone one knew how much you worked or how fortunate you were. Wow has none of that anymore, no one envies anyone.
Edited by Phelan on 4/12/2011 7:13 AM PDT
1 Gnome Warrior
0
ok, sorry to bring this up.

I used to play wow in 2005-2006 and it was capped at lvl 60. Back in the day was so much better than now. I feel current wow is now too easy, and a lot of the complexities erased for the ease of the less intelligent.

Ex:
No more 40 man raids (yes they were hard to coordinate, but that was what made it challenging and fun and rewarding)

No more Class specialization... remember when you needed a dwarf priest just for Fear ward. Now any 5 paladins can do a group run and complete the instance.

No more ammo....this seems to be for those who couldn't remember to bring arrows or bullets...making it easy...

Rep easier to get... remember when you would grind something for months and finally get the item...you were one in 5 on the server with the item. Now anyone if they spend two hours can get what everyone else has. I am hardcore...I want something I spend a lot of time at and no one else has.


I guess what I am saying, is the game is much easier and it is sad to see what I would put so much time into (doing calculations, finding groups, having pride in what I did) is no longer in the game. I wonder if Blizzard will ever put challenge back into the game...maybe make an expansion that is like the old days. (maybe just one 40 man raid with uber epic gear... or one class that has a real purpose in the game again).

Thanks for hearing me out,

Poppy

Let me know what I have left out that you remember and wish was back, even if it was not easy. Too many people want something for nothing and they should not necessarily get it just cause they wined. Doesn't make the game fun.



Many agree with you. My friends list was full back in the day, now only 25% maybe login since then and they would STILL agree with you.


Good post and %100 with ya, but blizz wont go back, they'll only go forward and make it worse.

Just hope that Titan is the **** and good players like us can make that game amazing! :P
90 Human Paladin
9475
04/12/2011 07:11 AMPosted by Pinkyy
Just hope that Titan is the **** and good players like us can make that game amazing! :P


You realize it's probably going to be an MMOFPS, right? Somehow, I don't think those who preferred old-school WoW and EQ are going to adjust well to a FPS based game.
1 Gnome Warrior
0
04/12/2011 07:19 AMPosted by Kurnea
Just hope that Titan is the **** and good players like us can make that game amazing! :P


You realize it's probably going to be an MMOFPS, right? Somehow, I don't think those who preferred old-school WoW and EQ are going to adjust well to a FPS based game.



Then they aren't true gamers then and can stay there. A true gamer can adapt to any game and like it...
100 Blood Elf Paladin
13110
at last, someone that actually knows everything that went on, yet disagrees.

let's dissect the phrase 'rose colored glasses' first of all. according to people definition, its looking back nostalicly while remembering the 'good' and forgetting the 'bad'.

unfortunatly, this "bad" is what the people in this thread that are opposing the others, are clamoring for.

<brevity cut>

players would be able to invest time and get the Knight lt blue pvp gear and mix and match D1 set pieces (which did take time to get) and such. then you could got into UBRS, which was your entry level raid (well after scholo and strat became five man)

so casual gamers had their stuff too. there was a ton of content back then and nothing truly felt linear. you went across the globe for EVERYTHING and the entire world was part of the game. all the things about raiding you listed were for those who seriously wanted to invest their time into raiding. that option was there. and now that option is what, heroic versions of the same thing? same drops, diff color? achievements? where's the fun in just getting a bunch of purples that are scattered along the road that you walk straight through to get to that "hardcore" content?


I’m sorry, but I disagree. No, people don’t look on trade and the LFG channel anymore, but go to the dozens of threads about why there is a tank shortage, you’ll find out why: people and doing dungeon runs with their guilds instead of just utilizing LFD. Sure, some people don’t know where dungeons are, but I bet a majority of the population was here prior to LFD being implemented.

Some of those things you seem to pine for are exactly the things that made the game tedious during vanilla and TBC (at least while leveling). Want to run Uldaman? Okay, time for an hour long walk to the Badlands, partially through Alliance territory (for us horde). Want to run SM? Okay Alliance, time for a long trek through Horde territory or through WPL at level 30-40 (mobs were low to mid 50’s there at that time, remember).

Did I enjoy the attunement quests? Sure I did… the first time I did them. But doing them on a second, or third, or fourth character was no longer fun. Did I enjoy doing my quest for my epic mount on my warlock and my paladin? LOVED IT! Yes, I’m sad that it’s gone. But after TBC came out, it was darn near impossible to get a group together for those instances, unless you got a guild group of high levels together.

The game is what, 6 years old? My girlfriend started playing last December. She just hit level 80, and she still jumped for joy at the achievement of getting there. She still loved the content leveling up, the dungeons, the zones, the fights. She doesn’t like to blitz through a dungeon, she critiques her gear, trying to decide if that haste and crit boost is worth the loss of the int.

But you know what she’s looking forward to the most? Having the ability to play with me… she’s not a hardcore gamer, this is her first MMO, her games before were things like Mario Sunshine. Do I expect her to be in our raid groups when we are trying new bosses, or attempting heroic content? No, I don’t. But would I like to be able to take her into a raid and kill bosses we have on farm? Yes, most definitely. She was saddened when she found out that the end of the Lich King storyline was in a raid, because she wanted to finish the Icecrown quests to know what happened.

The game still has that epic feel if you want it to. I personally spent a good hour just swimming around the new underwater zone when Cata hit, it was amazing. I still think Deepholm is amazing. My guild, which is pretty casual yet still raids twice a week, has not downed all the bosses yet, but when we down one, we scream and rejoice in vent.

Those things you find nostalgic and you want back were, in my opinion, things that held the game back. Making so much of the content not accessible isn’t a great game design. I was saddened when my guild broke up before we got to Illidan, I never got to experience that epic battle, and it wasn’t a fight you could just pug at level 70. Sunwell was out of the question for most people.

Sure, they had content for the casuals. But if you were truly interested in the story of the game, in the progression of that story, you had two options: miss it or become a hardcore gamer. And unfortunately, most people just had to miss it.
90 Human Paladin
9475
04/12/2011 07:57 AMPosted by Pinkyy
Then they aren't true gamers then and can stay there. A true gamer can adapt to any game and like it...


Just like you can't adapt to this expansion? The reason I'm saying they wouldn't be able to adapt is that FPS games typically don't have the kind of masochistic gameplay elements that Everquest and Vanilla WoW had. I'm sure getting off a headshot and what not will be difficult in terms of skill, but I doubt it will be as tedious and grindy as you guys would prefer. Thus you probably won't be able to adapt.

I mean come one, one of the common insults from the masochists is that WoW's turning into Call of Duty. I don't see those people appreciating an MMOFPS.
85 Tauren Druid
4675
I understand and respect gaming masochism. But, I think that changing mechanics to be more reasonable and less punishing is an improvement, not a detriment, to games in general. Many of us Original Gamers pine for the days of D&D-based yore when games were seemingly intended to break us down into sobbing masses created by an uncaring necromancer of pain and suffering, or at least didn't try to avoid it. Overcoming all of the obstacles (I CHOOSE NOT TO SHOOT HER WITH THE SILVER ARROW... NOOOOO) was a big part of what gaming (I HAVE 1 LIFE!?), and especially PC gaming (HOW DO I LOAD MOUSE DRIVERS?), were about. But, I feel we're lucky to now be in an age where those ideals (intended or not) are giving way to actual fun, actual challenge, and not fabricating it through high-reach requirements (I NEED A FAIRY MONK WITH A MAGIC LOCKPICK?

What we've always been trying to do, what WoW has always been about (and to which much of its success is due) is to make an accessible MMO. Anyone that looks back at the game at launch and wishes it was as challenging now as it was then is not aware of the painstaking effort put into making this game accessible as compared to its predecessors. Since release we've refined that intent, eventually evolving the very few masochistic designs WoW actually ever started with, but ideally still offering those same prestige goals that give that feeling of achieving something great if you're able to pull it off. We've made a lot of progress toward striking that balance and continuing to evolve the game, but it's not something we're ever likely to perfect, and we'll be constantly working to hit that elusive goal. Hopefully it's to the benefit of everyone playing and enjoying the game, and they'll continue to enjoy the journey that a living, breathing, persistent universe will take us on.


And yet it astounds me personally that thread after thread after thread expounds on the fact that the player base is unsatisfied with this expansion, and the developers continue to ignore them and tell us that everything is great.

There is no way it will improve until the developers own up to the fact that it isn't good.
90 Human Paladin
9475
And yet it astounds me personally that thread after thread after thread expounds on the fact that the player base is unsatisfied with this expansion, and the developers continue to ignore them and tell us that everything is great.

There is no way it will improve until the developers own up to the fact that it isn't good.


The player base has been unsatisfied with every expansion, at least if you judge by the forums. Everything you hate about the current expansion can be traced back to the qq of the former expansion.
90 Worgen Death Knight
8230
04/08/2011 07:15 PMPosted by Rankin
No more Class specialization... remember when you needed a dwarf priest just for Fear ward. Now any 5 paladins can do a group run and complete the instance.

Remember not being able to raid the day your Dwarf Priest didn't show up?


Remember when horde had to do it without a dwarf priest ever? lol stance dance baby
100 Undead Rogue
9360
I am sorry I totally disagree, you have been catering to the PVP casualls for the last 3 years (since arenas came out). My PVP guild won the guild beta contest and was so excited with the coming 10, 15, and 40v40 rated BGs. Then just before lauch you changed the 40v40 to 25v25, then the next week you removed 25 all together, then 2 months into the expansion you removed 15v15 rated BGs. Now all we have are glorified arenas with 10v10 rated BG and once again catering to the casuals that don't have the patience to put together anything more than a 10 man group.

You once again have killed PVP guilds by catering to the casuals. Had you left the large rated BGs in place you would have seen rated BG participation grow to levels you could have only dreamed about. You lack little long terrm insight because you cater to the short term casuals that buy the game, play it for a few months, and then quit. Whereas the serious players that have been here for over six years have to watch you squander opportunity after opportunity to make large organized PVP a success.
Edited by Undying on 4/12/2011 8:21 AM PDT
85 Human Paladin
3640
I wish i knew what i was getting into in the game sounds like the original wow i would have hated. They made the game appealing to me and people like me in wrath and then changed it back after they got the casuals like me hooked. Blizz seems to be a bunch of marketing jerks that dont care about their true following sucks for you guys.And since they brought out cata sucks for casual gamers like me.
85 Human Paladin
4445
Vanil was good and Cata is good too...why do people want to go back to vanil /shiver
85 Troll Hunter
2885
I didn't read the entire 23 pages of this but someone may have already made this suggestion. Back with EQ1, Sony had a server that was for original content. They set the level cap at the original level and items scaled.

Blizz could do that. Make a Vanilla server, bring back the 40 man raids etc. Don't allow BoA gear. I would be interesting to see how sucessful it be lol. I remember when we had to call off an Onyxia raid because all we could get was 34 slots filled for the raid hehe.

I read an earlier thread of a guy who complained about not getting 10 people to show up for a raid twice a week lol

Tanks having to farm mats to have resist gear made for certain fights, (no gear scores), having to kill Ony so many times to have enough scales to field a 40 man Blackwing Lair run. Everyone would need their complete sets from Molton Core with your Ony Cloak just to be able to succeed in BWL... nature resist sets for AQ40 for all members, all you had were the enchants from enchanters (not all the enchnats were available; handful of players on server that could make things) ZG and Argent Dawn had the only shoulder enchants....you could get maybe 3 bosses a night and 40 people waited and rolled on two items per boss that were class specific in most cases) ... guilds coming together and trading rare drops in order to make a legendary weapon and there was like 1 or two on the server.....man thinking back...it's a totally different game. Evolution

I don't think people would go for it.
85 Human Paladin
4445
World of Warcraft: Vanil 2.0 "Wipe when you pull 3 guys at lvl 8!" You no take candle indeed!
86 Night Elf Rogue
6295
04/08/2011 06:38 PMPosted by Toll
Only thing i would like back are wsg with no timer and the old AV where you could leave and come back an hr or 2 later to the same game. Those felt more fun than the stupid honor grind it is now. But people need their honor i suppose :p


Ya AV need to just be changed all over. There no point in most the stuff now a days i mean you cant even get the items to upgrade the guards not that there is a point and when was teh last time you summon the boss?
About a year ago I was in an AV where we summoned ivus I thought it was awesome that it actually got that far.
80 Human Death Knight
1130
I understand and respect gaming masochism. But, I think that changing mechanics to be more reasonable and less punishing is an improvement, not a detriment, to games in general. Many of us Original Gamers pine for the days of D&D-based yore when games were seemingly intended to break us down into sobbing masses created by an uncaring necromancer of pain and suffering, or at least didn't try to avoid it. Overcoming all of the obstacles (I CHOOSE NOT TO SHOOT HER WITH THE SILVER ARROW... NOOOOO) was a big part of what gaming (I HAVE 1 LIFE!?), and especially PC gaming (HOW DO I LOAD MOUSE DRIVERS?), were about. But, I feel we're lucky to now be in an age where those ideals (intended or not) are giving way to actual fun, actual challenge, and not fabricating it through high-reach requirements (I NEED A FAIRY MONK WITH A MAGIC LOCKPICK?).

What we've always been trying to do, what WoW has always been about (and to which much of its success is due) is to make an accessible MMO. Anyone that looks back at the game at launch and wishes it was as challenging now as it was then is not aware of the painstaking effort put into making this game accessible as compared to its predecessors. Since release we've refined that intent, eventually evolving the very few masochistic designs WoW actually ever started with, but ideally still offering those same prestige goals that give that feeling of achieving something great if you're able to pull it off. We've made a lot of progress toward striking that balance and continuing to evolve the game, but it's not something we're ever likely to perfect, and we'll be constantly working to hit that elusive goal. Hopefully it's to the benefit of everyone playing and enjoying the game, and they'll continue to enjoy the journey that a living, breathing, persistent universe will take us on.


We understand but let's get down to the real agenda..

...the whole catering to the soft core was to drive subs.....BLizzard, Vivendi...whoever realized there was a whole pool of casuals out there waiting to play WoW but we're intimidated by most MMORPGS and their complexities. Subsequently, Wow was dumb downed (It was Diablosized) . This kind of thinking reached it's pinnacle at WOTLK. Remember 'Epics for Everyone'? debate. I think Wow reached it's biggest appeal to the masses during this period.

Now it's been dialed back a notch and all the wrath babies are going WTH....what's CC? Why can't I faceroll bosses anymore. This isolates the Moms and Pops that don't have time to Youtube every boss or run every encounter 3-4 times before they understand the fight. I mean that's fine with me, I've been around since vanilla. I kinda like not running an instance in 10 mins like in WOTLK, there should always be a chance for failure.

That said, this game is still trying to be too much. Trying to be everything for everybody eventually means you really end up being 'nothing'. You can see it now, guilds are dying, the social interdependency that defines MMORPGs is dying in WoW. That,coupled with the fact that WoW is finally showing it's age, I think we're in for a rough patch the next year until the next expansion. Is WoW dead? Hell no. Is it in a recession? Just like the rest of the country.

I just wish that getting a epic or a nice peice of gear meant something. I remember when I got my GM Claymoore....it was envy of every warrior, paladin and that lasted a better part of the year. Even the Askandi users were jealous. EQ, was like that, when you got some epic gear, even though it was just some crappy retexture...everyone one knew how much you worked or how fortunate you were. Wow has none of that anymore, no one envies anyone.


Wrath hard mode/heroic raiding was not easy. Less than 2% of raiding people killed LK H after more than 8 month beign current tier and with a 30% buff. Putricide reached 10% (again, with buff), alone in the dark wasnt achieved by too many people in their current tier. Sartharion 3D wasnt easy, especially in 10 man.

Problem is, too many people repeats the same idiot things so that others think they are pros.

Tjcid
85 Human Paladin
Dreadnoks
3450
I wish i knew what i was getting into in the game sounds like the original wow i would have hated. They made the game appealing to me and people like me in wrath and then changed it back after they got the casuals like me hooked. Blizz seems to be a bunch of marketing jerks that dont care about their true following sucks for you guys.And since they brought out cata sucks for casual gamers like me.


If your ability to play the game is anything like your ability to write a logical post, it's no wonder you're struggling.
88 Blood Elf Hunter
5070
I've played WoW ever since the Launch and I can say it HAS become much easier. I don't mind it that much, probably because I am a casual gamer and I'm not very big into injecting huge amounts of game time.

Still, I remember the days when we had to read the quest log word for word to find the location to complete it, the days where you had to auto-run for 10 minutes because you can;t get a mount till level 40....

Those were good times, but WoW has come a long way since then. I miss the old Azeroth ever since Cata came out, but we have to embrace change. Not everything is going to stay the same. The only thing that won't change is how we remembered it back then.

Good job Blizz, and keep it up (:
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