Old Wow

90 Draenei Paladin
16715
Vanilla Nostalgia is far more damaging to this game.
100 Tauren Druid
18835
I love all the posters talking smack about the game they likely never played. "Vanilla wasn't better, you don't remember anything. BTW, I started 3 weeks into Wrath. "

I don't post much on the forums these days, but I have to speak up about some of this. Yes, the fit and polish of the game in WotLK and Cata is world above, as is the questing system, and to a degree the class balance and spec representation. However, it seems the cost of this is that the development team is completely satisfied with a player base that has no mind to get better.

I loved Vanilla and in large part TBC because the term casual hardcore meant something for raiders. I spent 3 years in a guild that was a progression guild, 3 nights a week, and even though we never pushed server firsts or anything, we all knew that we were a cut above because we actually knew how to play and worked our butts off.

The game in its current form isn't about anybody trying to learn their class, work as a team, or be coordinated. You can spend a few weeks wiping because people are doing something stupid and eventually WoW will hot fix it to overcome your disinterest in progressing as a player. Systemic content nerfs and the badge system are the real reason WoW's content is trivialized and ignored, just like how Ulduar was largely ignored for ToC 5 mans and badge loot.


... by your own words, you're telling me you didn't *really* play during Vanilla. I was there, I remember the nerfs. For *!%%'s sake, some bosses literally could not be killed without nerfs, the encounters were that poorly designed. Claiming that "systemic content nerfs" is new is flat out lying.

As for the rest, yeah, okay, TOC let you cut in line, from your point of view - but from mine, it allowed people to have a change of pace and play something new. In Vanilla, there was no gearing up an alt if you wanted to play something new in endgame. In LK, I had three toons in ICC, and could play whichever I felt like playing on some nights, or on others if the guild needed me for something specific, I had the option. That simply was not feasible in Vanilla, and personally, I think having options is better than not.
85 Blood Elf Death Knight
3115
I understand and respect gaming masochism. But, I think that changing mechanics to be more reasonable and less punishing is an improvement, not a detriment, to games in general. Many of us Original Gamers pine for the days of D&D-based yore when games were seemingly intended to break us down into sobbing masses created by an uncaring necromancer of pain and suffering, or at least didn't try to avoid it. Overcoming all of the obstacles (I CHOOSE NOT TO SHOOT HER WITH THE SILVER ARROW... NOOOOO) was a big part of what gaming (I HAVE 1 LIFE!?), and especially PC gaming (HOW DO I LOAD MOUSE DRIVERS?), were about. But, I feel we're lucky to now be in an age where those ideals (intended or not) are giving way to actual fun, actual challenge, and not fabricating it through high-reach requirements (I NEED A FAIRY MONK WITH A MAGIC LOCKPICK?).

What we've always been trying to do, what WoW has always been about (and to which much of its success is due) is to make an accessible MMO. Anyone that looks back at the game at launch and wishes it was as challenging now as it was then is not aware of the painstaking effort put into making this game accessible as compared to its predecessors. Since release we've refined that intent, eventually evolving the very few masochistic designs WoW actually ever started with, but ideally still offering those same prestige goals that give that feeling of achieving something great if you're able to pull it off. We've made a lot of progress toward striking that balance and continuing to evolve the game, but it's not something we're ever likely to perfect, and we'll be constantly working to hit that elusive goal. Hopefully it's to the benefit of everyone playing and enjoying the game, and they'll continue to enjoy the journey that a living, breathing, persistent universe will take us on.



Amen.

To the OP: If you thought you were more intelligent than other people just because you played Vanilla WoW, well... hard to break it to you, but WoW was never even close to scoring over 120 on an IQ test.
100 Night Elf Druid
18350
In my mind it's not about more or less punishing, but balancing between the two.

Folks like to collect the special effect white gear (pilgrim suit, summer festival suit, etc) - so put more in the game to make that kind of stuff easily attainable. Make us sweat for the "big" stuff.

Right now, you're so afraid of "cheapening" the big stuff, you're making us weep blood for trash.

So, going back to archaeology, what if, instead of countless grinding out trash items, you discovered trash quickly and turned them in for currency that you could use to buy Archaeology themes clothes (which maybe could even help improve the drop rate on the green and blue items).

What if questing in a zone provided currency with a faction that allowed you to purchase themed white gear? You could tie it in with reputation, so the cooler looking white gear could be attainable at higher reputations.

What if obtaining all the dragonling pet drops (not the CE dragons) resulted in a title "Dragon-Keeper" or something?

What if you could "adopt" an orphan and what if you had *all* races available (faction specific); and to adopt that child you would need to have completed all the Children's week quests...and maybe that only unlocks once you've collected all the pets (sans Dalaran, since that one is broken).

Or what if you could have a faction page (like the Argent Crusade Page but from each faction's capitals)?

What about a title "Dragon Rider" for folks who have all the regular drakes (since you got rid of the Naxx drake - otherwise, I'd say every dragon mount)?

What if you gave us MORE TO DO with the Argent Dawn/Crusade - especially since some of us have exalted reputations with both. Same with the Cenarion Circle/Expedition. What if there was faction specific trifles for the Cenarions? What if you brought the tourney BACK to Azeroth - make an 85 version but keep the 75 version intact in Northrend. Or maybe the tourney makes circuits around all the capitals, like the Darkmoon Faire. Maybe you unlock different features as you level so everyone can have a little fun. Only the jousting part though. People can still earn tokens and the mechanics aren't abandoned in Northrend.

There are so many, little things that can be done to give people something fun to do and be a palette cleanser between the bigger grinds. And not everything needs to be a heart-wrenching, soul-breaking grind in order to be fun.

The effort has to match the reward, and right now, there are too many instances where the effort is simply not worth it. Small rewards should require little effort; big rewards a lot of effort, and we should be able to choose what kind of effort we want to put in for the night and we have to understand that we are not going to end up with the Sword of a Thousand Truths for poking a squirrel with a stick.
Edited by Atanae on 4/9/2011 5:07 AM PDT
85 Orc Warrior
1980
04/08/2011 06:25 PMPosted by Xannai
The blues and mods get asked this almost twice a day. It's either change the game back, or add classic servers. The game has to keep moving forward to reach it's full potential. Without that, it's left to be doomed and another project just taken off the wall of ideas.


And as time progresses people get burnt out, especially with the class utility in Cataclysm. No one class is unique anymore, at least one other class has the same sort of utility. Let's not forget that WoW has been around for about 6 years now which is exceptionally long for an MMO. I still enjoy this game but sometimes I wish I could just go back to the days of TBC when it was less polished but more fun overall.
85 Orc Warrior
1980
04/09/2011 01:13 AMPosted by Himalaya
But, I feel we're lucky to now be in an age where those ideals (intended or not) are giving way to actual fun, actual challenge


Archaeology.


Honor grinding.
87 Night Elf Druid
10435
I love all the posters talking smack about the game they likely never played. "Vanilla wasn't better, you don't remember anything. BTW, I started 3 weeks into Wrath. "

I don't post much on the forums these days, but I have to speak up about some of this. Yes, the fit and polish of the game in WotLK and Cata is world above, as is the questing system, and to a degree the class balance and spec representation. However, it seems the cost of this is that the development team is completely satisfied with a player base that has no mind to get better.

I loved Vanilla and in large part TBC because the term casual hardcore meant something for raiders. I spent 3 years in a guild that was a progression guild, 3 nights a week, and even though we never pushed server firsts or anything, we all knew that we were a cut above because we actually knew how to play and worked our butts off.

The game in its current form isn't about anybody trying to learn their class, work as a team, or be coordinated. You can spend a few weeks wiping because people are doing something stupid and eventually WoW will hot fix it to overcome your disinterest in progressing as a player. Systemic content nerfs and the badge system are the real reason WoW's content is trivialized and ignored, just like how Ulduar was largely ignored for ToC 5 mans and badge loot.


... by your own words, you're telling me you didn't *really* play during Vanilla. I was there, I remember the nerfs. For *!%%'s sake, some bosses literally could not be killed without nerfs, the encounters were that poorly designed. Claiming that "systemic content nerfs" is new is flat out lying.

As for the rest, yeah, okay, TOC let you cut in line, from your point of view - but from mine, it allowed people to have a change of pace and play something new. In Vanilla, there was no gearing up an alt if you wanted to play something new in endgame. In LK, I had three toons in ICC, and could play whichever I felt like playing on some nights, or on others if the guild needed me for something specific, I had the option. That simply was not feasible in Vanilla, and personally, I think having options is better than not.


uhm, what made gearing an alt impossible in classic? I don't follow. I know a quite a few people who used to gear up alts on mc/zg/bwl runs until they could come for aq40/naxx raids. I myself used to play a rogue or druid depending on what my guild needed at the time.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
16825
My only problem with the game now is the lack of contact with other players in the open world. I was definitely one of the players who wanted flying mounts more than anything but now that we have them, have had them for a while, and they are so easy to obtain, I wish they weren't around anymore. Yes running around would take longer but with the amount of flight paths they have now and have group will travel perk, transportation would be far from hard. I loved running into the opposite faction while on a road and then starting a fight with them and while fighting having other people see the fight and jump in as well and before you knew it, you had a 15v15 fight going on in the middle of Un'Goro. No reason for the fight other than wanting to kill and show dominance over the opposing faction.

It made the game feel more populated. I would see people out and about, not just in Org or SW. With everyone flying it just makes everyone feel more disconnected from everyone else.

Obviously, that is just my opinion but I am sure it's a shared one with some original wow players.
85 Worgen Priest
6280
I don't really care if the less skilled players have issues with raiding/heroics.

I like it just how Cata was when it first came out (pre-nerfs). People can either get better or go collect mounts or something.

PvE wasn't even that hard, just had to learn not to tunnel vision.
100 Tauren Druid
16230
04/08/2011 05:49 PMPosted by Bashiok
What we've always been trying to do, what WoW has always been about (and to which much of its success is due) is to make an accessible MMO. Anyone that looks back at the game at launch and wishes it was as challenging now as it was then is not aware of the painstaking effort put into making this game accessible as compared to its predecessors. Since release we've refined that intent, eventually evolving the very few masochistic designs WoW actually ever started with, but ideally still offering those same prestige goals that give that feeling of achieving something great if you're able to pull it off. We've made a lot of progress toward striking that balance and continuing to evolve the game, but it's not something we're ever likely to perfect, and we'll be constantly working to hit that elusive goal. Hopefully it's to the benefit of everyone playing and enjoying the game, and they'll continue to enjoy the journey that a living, breathing, persistent universe will take us on.


I think in general this is dead on and great, with the exception of Archaeology. Thats the most masochistic thing i've ever seen in this video game. Now i know you are going to dismiss this as hyperbole, but take a gander at my achievement count. Take a look at the rogue on my account and the title she sports. Take a look at how many times i've run heroic Sethek Hall or done that godforsaken Polar Bear bag daily (can bliz even look at something so specific? who knows). I've taken most things "grindy" and obnoxious or masochistic in this game and completed them with delight. Many of the really hard reps back when they were very difficult to cap, as well.

But archaeology broke me. It was fun at first, and is a neat concept, and has so much potential to keep being fun and great, but nothing in the game has been designed more purposefully masochistic than this secondary trade. I've sat and fished for days to get certain fish that don't do a damn thing. Do you have any idea how boring fishing can be? But nothing compares to archaeology. You want a comparison to the "old days' of gaming when stuff was hard? I would rather be forced to beat Battletoads AND Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles for the NES drunk and with bandaids on my finger tips rather than keep grinding for the Aqua-marine Battletank with the false hope that the next tol'vir artifact just might be the thing i want.
85 Night Elf Warrior
6735
I miss Vanilla, mainly because I preferred 40 man raiding over the future iterations of end game. The 40 mans included a lot of my favorite encounters, outside of the bore fest that was MC.

Server communities were great, but at the same time transfers were necessary. Getting stuck on the wrong server because you didn't know any better when you started could definitely ruin your play experience.

On the whole I can't really hold the decisions the developers have made against them, on some level they all make sense even if I don't personally agree with all of them. I'm personally not a fan of the extreme homogenization of classes within the same role that has been ocuring of late. It almost feels at this point like all the classes within a role are virtually identical(as a long time tank I admit I might be very biased on this point) except for maybe one thing and that they might press their buttons in an ever so slightly different order. I miss classes/specs being very specific and group comp within raids mattering, but then I can see why they had to change it as well (although I think they definitely overdid it in Cataclysm, this is one of the few places where I think Wrath actually struck the correct balance for them).

I might chalk this all up to the nostalgia factor, but at the end of the day while I think for the most part they have made the correct decisions for their game, I still personally don't like a lot of them, and I definitely feel killing 40 mans was a mistake.

Oh and while dwarf priests trivialized certain fight mechanics, you weren't calling raids because you didn't have one, you were calling them because your tanks were bad.
Edited by Cordrann on 4/9/2011 6:41 AM PDT
Classic -> get an epic, you feel epic.
Cata - > get an epic.....its basically a common.


Considering actual epics are as hard to acquire as they have been since Vanilla/BC, this one made me lawl. They took epic drops out of heroics and made them only available via long rep grinds, expensive crafting, and raids, what more do you want?
85 Night Elf Warrior
6735
Classic -> get an epic, you feel epic.
Cata - > get an epic.....its basically a common.


Considering actual epics are as hard to acquire as they have been since Vanilla/BC, this one made me lawl. They took epic drops out of heroics and made them only available via long rep grinds, expensive crafting, and raids, what more do you want?


While I personally think Cataclysm difficulty and gearing is completely fine, I'm just going to go ahead and point out you completely left out valor points. Epics are significantly more accessible now than they ever were in Vanilla. This is not a bad thing, ultimately its pretty trivial. The point of the game is the encounters and mechanics, not what color text your pants have.
85 Gnome Priest
10455
its ironic how the people complaining about how easy the game is now havent cleared any remotely difficult content
85 Goblin Shaman
3550
Well you also have the people that complain that Cata raids are too hard now, so Blizz just bends over to their will and makes it so. It seems that every time some little idiot complains Blizzard shifts gears from the majority of the people, to the minority; and takes their word on it.
100 Gnome Mage
16590
04/09/2011 01:13 AMPosted by Himalaya
But, I feel we're lucky to now be in an age where those ideals (intended or not) are giving way to actual fun, actual challenge


Archaeology.


I also like to take someone's post, apply one point in it to the WHOLE thing, and then submit one example that doesn't fit that, and act like I'm superior.
85 Tauren Warrior
14270
It's hard to get 10 people to not stand in fire nowadays, and you want 40 mans back?
87 Draenei Shaman
4575
Sooooo..... you want the game to be less convenient? All the things you mentioned were stream linings that made life easier and made the game more accessible to everyone. I've been playing since vanilla and while there are some things I miss, none of what you mentioned is among them.
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