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And just who are you to sit there and say that people have or haven't played in original WoW? Unless they actually admit to it, aren't you just assuming? BTW...I'd love to see you prove that accusation with me, since I was in the original beta for WoW. Anyone else here remember Skill Points?
In light of hard modes in raiding, and the VERY few guild who have achieved these, I'd like you to back up this statement.
That doesn't sound elitist at all. "We knew we were a cut above..."
Again, if you're interested in proving your point, please back up your statements with hard examples. You say "The game in its current form isn't about anybody trying to learn their class, work as a team, or be coordinated." But directly after this, you follow up with "You can spend a few weeks wiping because people are doing something stupid ..." Doesn't this invalidate your point? I realize you tried to follow it up with something that proves it, but until you actually show me a situation where Blizzard did this, I'm going to chalk it up baseless accusations.
You know the funny thing about all this? We've got all these people saying Cata sucks, and they're leaving. I wonder, back in the day, how many people said WoW sucked and left? It would be interesting to compare the numbers.
ok, sorry to bring this up.
Well, when you have friends who know what they're doing and try to do things right, sure, it's almost too easy these days. However, not everyone has friends like that. As a matter of fact, most people don't. It's is a bare minority that have a group of people who all do what they're supposed to.
I get to deal with the LFD tool. Let me tell you, right now, that is hell. I get overgeared morons who go pulling extra groups, complaining the whole time that we should be going faster. Then they wipe us repeatedly because of their stupid garbage. It's impossible to get through a heroic these days with a random group. it becomes 2-3 hours of wiping over and over again. Not because of inexperienced or undergeared people, but because of too many stupid people.
The reason they've made things easier (that was at a maximum in Wrath) because half the players weren't able to get through dungeons with the other half being impatient and stupid. Certain things need to be easier right now specifically because of that.
I did enjoy Vanilla and TBC the most and I have one complaint.
Raid entry "Requirements":
In these two expansions specifically you did not raid unless you really wanted to raid. You personally had to make sure you had all of your appropriate elixirs, food buffs, flasks, weapon oils, tubers, RESIST GEAR, etc. etc. Yes... I did mention resist gear because I actually did think it was a unique concept and fun. Having all of these required pieces to raid (generally) only allowed the people who truly wanted to raid into raiding. People who didn't make sure "their stuff was ready to go" were weeded out.
This expansion... is definitely (when it comes to raiding) the expansion of laziness. I would say your average guild raids 3-4 nights a week. Your typical player logs on and makes sure they have a spare flask or two and a few foods (assuming your guild doesn't already supply them with cauldrons/feasts). With this mentality ANYONE can just walk into the raid scenario with ease because it is very accessible. Doing hard-modes for slightly better gear is laughable.
TL;DR Blizzard... I am not an elitist but raiding is not meant to be accessible to everyone. There needs to be a gap between people who say "meh, ok ill raid tonight" and the people who truly want to raid.
While you can make an argument that WoW is too easy now, you've not picked a single leg for yourself to stand on.
As Bashiok (somewhat) pointed out, all those changes are convenience changes and have no impact on any skill requirement for PvP or high end PvE content. You seem to kind of get what some of the hot button issues are, but fail to understand any at all.
For instance, class homogenization is a growing problem, but removing fear ward from the rest of the priests so "dwarf priests are special" is stupid, it was stupid in Vanilla and it'd be stupider now, as would be removing Horde pallies and making us farm shards for umpteen bajillion hours before every raid.
There's a difference between making things too easy and making them convenient and accessible, you don't understand that difference at all.
EDIT: An example of what I'm talking about:
Theoretical raid boss X is the most difficult boss of all time.
Theoretical raid boss Y is easy, entry level.
Theoretical raid boss X is in a dungeon with no attunement.
Theoretical raid boss Y is in a dungeon that requires attunement from 10 previous dungeons and 1,000,000g worth of rare materials.
Theoretical raid boss X and Y will most likely have about the same number of people kill them.
Which do you prefer?
Edited by Monkeyslayr on 4/9/2011 7:33 AM PDT
I agree almost completely with the OP I miss the days of WORLD PVP, the epic battles in Southshore/Tarren Mill that could last hours, even days. The AV's that you'd be in for 5 hours and go to bed and the next day STILL be going. None of this mount up and fly away once you have a CC cooldown up garbage. I mean it seems like they've done all they could to remove any world PVP from the game. I understand camping and griefing can be upsetting to some players, but why does EVERY realm have to be a PVE/Normal realm now?
I miss having to use marks to cast my buffs, sometimes I don't even get to put up kings because a druid has it. Reagents served two purposes in game, it made a player responsible to do his part and it also ensured some money would be taken out of the economy fighting inflation. I miss farming blinding powder out of lockboxes in STV and making sure I bought 10 stacks of vanishing powder before I went into battle.
It was awesome losing my epic ammo pattern shortly after I had to use a 5000g primordial saronite to buy it (and choose Gnomish or Goblin Engineering).
I don't think they took challenge out of the game, when in fact it is quite hard (especially in raid encounters) but I do think they removed a lot of little things that made you feel "good" because you knew what you were doing and being responsible to contribute to the cause. A feeling of adequacy is always a good feeling. A feeling of being a sheep amongst the herd on the other hand....
The class specialization thing kinda irks me too, I mean almost every class has some form of healing? Why? How can you justify a Warrior or Rogue having heals? They have/had damage reducing cooldowns so that they didn't need heals, you're not supposed to be able to roll 24 people in a row 1v1 without eating/drinking. I enjoyed the rock/paper/scissors set up of pvp, I mean, eventually a REALLY sharp pair of scissors will cut through a rock.
Rep grinds are probably where they need to be, tabbards are eroding the enjoyment of that mechanic slowly too.
I dunno, I guess it's just my two cents. After all Wow still has 89723897423897423890239870423 players so obviously they must still being doing something right, unfortunately.
There is a huge difference between a video game being challenging and a player requiring patience and a game that requires excessive grinding for a small reward. Vanilla wow was a game that required almost excessive grinding for the smallest of things, that were also necessary (journeyman riding).
I admire Blizzard for taking all of the necessary things and making them much more affordable b/c who will really spend 1k gold on journeyman riding or farm a dungeon for days farming mats to make some fire resist gear, who is willing to get attuned to instances anymore? "If I have the gear to run it, shouldn't that be attuned enough?"
Why do I need to be honored w/ certain factions to run a certain Heroic? (TBC)
I'm not saying I want something for nothing but in Vanilla WoW and in TBC Blizzard asked way to much of its player to get such small rewards. WoW was a game that required excessive grinding to do anything that involved endgame. With the release of WotLK Blizzard really addressed this and made the game casual player friendly.
I still think that certain aspects of the game are difficult and only the hardcore-elite players will ever see.
This issue can be solved by people posting their toons that have old school PvP titles. Like this guy. I got Grunt on him!
... Yeah, I didn't really have the free time for PvP back in Vanilla. Or raiding outside of the occasional foray into ZG on my warrior, as a tank, 'cause lulz DPS warrior.
Most of the things you're asking isn't exactly making the game more "fun and exciting". No longer having to remember arrows didn't make anything "easy". Remembering arrows made it tedious, having to hearth all the way back from the instance hoping to get a summon back. If no one was there yet (because it took HOURS to get a group together let alone get someone not as lazy to help summon) you'd have to fly all the way back wasting even more time out of your gaming experience you logged on for.
Although I agree to an extent that many classes are being homogenized some class specifics were just ridiculous. Like you said, a nice example is Fear Ward. If there is Fear heavy trash in an instance and they're looking for one more dps, it'd probably be a dwarf shadow priest. Those are rare to find (and still are on my server) and was a pain on both sides. I couldn't join because they NEEDED that Fear Ward and they had to wait hours for it unless they gave up.
Vanilla was fun, it was refreshing and was my first MMO so EVERYTHING was amazing to me. Now I look back on it and I don't know how I tolerated it. I don't think WoW would have been better without it and I think Blizzard agrees. WoW wouldn't be what it is today if there wasn't a Vanilla. I definitely had my fun times back then but I'm glad there are changes to the game for the better.
Edited by Xyllina on 4/9/2011 8:01 AM PDT
In other words what this is saying is they are making the game easier in order to broaden their gaming demographic to include less skilled (qualified?) people so that they may increase their subscription base. Basically it boils down to if you want a more challanging game, go find another game where the challange of the game and not just the raids is a key factor of the game.
Im honestly not trolling here, but you know as well as i do that all that says is " We pandered to the masses to make our game outsell other MMOs "
Be honest Bashoik, its not the wow dev team makeing the game more accesable. Its the wow dev team being told to "make the game easier for bro gamers so more people play, so we can make more money" dont sugar coat it. If it was still about makeing an excellent game and not money then instead of saying of "were changing this to make it more accesable to the entire palyerbase" you guys would say "this is how it is, it works right and is hard, if you cant do it stop sucking and get better or gtfo.
Edited by Humakavula on 4/9/2011 8:55 AM PDT
Rep easier to get... remember when you would grind something for months and finally get the item...you were one in 5 on the server with the item. Now anyone if they spend two hours can get what everyone else has. I am hardcore...I want something I spend a lot of time at and no one else has.
i see that youre a level 70 and apparently havent stepped foot into cata raiding yet. when you clear all the heroic raiding bosses then you can complain
I think in general this is dead on and great, with the exception of Archaeology. Thats the most masochistic thing i've ever seen in this video game. Now i know you are going to dismiss this as hyperbole, but take a gander at my achievement count. Take a look at the rogue on my account and the title she sports. Take a look at how many times i've run heroic Sethek Hall or done that godforsaken Polar Bear bag daily (can bliz even look at something so specific? who knows). I've taken most things "grindy" and obnoxious or masochistic in this game and completed them with delight. Many of the really hard reps back when they were very difficult to cap, as well.
Seconded! (Check my chieve count, check my title, etc.) Have all the fishing chieves except limnologist and oceanographer. Arch is handsdown the most masochistic time sink i have engaged in yet. So intolerable I cannot even bring myself to really finish out the achievements. Flying all over Azeroth to do digsites that are probably not even the ones I need to hope for a chance to get a rare proc? THAT deserves the insane title.
That aside, I have fond memories of vanilla also, but wouldn't consider going back. I don't think calling things "easier" or "harder" is appropriate, seems apples to oranges to me. Game has seen huge improvements through the years in almost every quantifiable area (but archaeology SUCKS, although Archy addon makes it tolerable for short periods of time).
It does seem that much of the game has gotten too easy in some aspects; the specific areas of challenge are less generalized and more specific to rated pvp and heroic raids. Also, I hate to say it, but pvp vs pve balance sometimes seems to get out of hand. What i mean is, this is still an mmorpg, those are pve games first and foremost. It is a shame when pve suffers in the name of pvp balance, and that does seem to happen with increasing frequency lately (of course it does, pro-gaming and e-sports make it a neccesity, so this is no shock).
Still, obscure reps like timbermaw now only take a few hours to get to exalted. That seems a bit too easy, in some cases the devs have certainly oversimplified things, and that is to be expected I think, they're human and prone to error like everyone else. But I'd still take Cata and 4 hour timbermaw ner*##e over farming felwood for pot mats for hours every night to raid.
I played in vanilla and in no way was it better.
In terms of understanding class mechanics, back in vanilla the best players on a server are about as good as the average players are now. The lack of readily available information from sources like EJ did not make the game harder, simply more mysterious. The level of complication the fights in vanilla had are nothing compared to current hard mode encounters. There is still very challenging content around, the only difference is that there is almost two games now, normal modes and hard modes.
In the end you're reminiscing on the nostalgia days where the average player base was in greens with a few blues, keyboard turned and clicked their skills, didn't even train all their skills from a class trainer to save gold, and anyone who had a clue and raided (or pushed rank 13 or 14) was basically a god among men. It was fun while it lasted but now the challenge comes from actually playing well not having cheat codes on and I don't miss it.
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