PvE HPally Theorycrafting Pt.2

85 Dwarf Paladin
7025
07/04/2011 07:28 AMPosted by Lylthe
Sorry Rabel, but Crit is definitely better than mastery. If I advocated stacking besides haste, it would be crit.
You should check out the Healing forum, there are a few threads (including one of mine) where people are discussing this stuff outside of statistical benefits.

I know that's your area of expertise but sometimes it doesn't always produce the best results.

As far as reacting to unpredictable burst damage? Yeah, as an Illuminator (Mastery stacker) my only solution is to spam heals on the tank constantly and maximize my efficiency while doing so.

But then, where a Haster can't afford to waste that healing, I can due to my added efficiency. I haven't done the other fights but on Shannox if I spammed my tank with Holy Light, Holy Shock, and saved my HP for a 3xWoG the moment burst happened I could mostly handle it with ease. Where I couldn't, I could afford to use Flash of Light. Furthermore, the burst was always reduced relative to a Haster's version due to my higher shielding.

I know you know all this, but it just stands to reason to me that preventing damage is superior to more quickly reacting to it - even if that means you're wasting healing just to build up a buffer (if its efficient enough healing, its far and above worth it over reactionary healing). Furthermore we have tools to provide faster healing when we need them, we don't need to use Haste to make our standard heals capable of accomplishing the same task - we can also choose to use our stats to make sure using those tools provided to us don't cost us too dearly to be used.
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6 Troll Shaman
0
Rabel, I'm an easy person to convince. Post some math.

WoW isn't some mystical system where we have to rely on gut instinct or some "feeling" out something. It's a math game wrapped up in pretty graphics and dragons.

I haven't found a single situation or model where mastery beats any other stat. Crit is better. Spirit is better. Haste is better. Int is better. The only reason to have mastery is the multiplicative stacking with haste and crit or the fact that sometimes you just can't avoid it.

Again, I'm easy to convince. Show me a convincing model/math and I'm sold.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
11145
For Baleroc
NEVER
EVER
USE
A
MASTERY
SET

unless you want to see 50% of your IH being overhealing because you reached the cap within in 1-2 casts.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9825
Now I'm not in a guild doing hardmode stuff sadly.. And my guild don't have alot of holy pallies to talk about !%*# with.

But I've always loved HASTE!! (of course now I logged out in my !%*#ty tanking spec so I can't see what my haste is currently cos servers are down). But I am curious when do I have too much haste? Cos I think I recall something like 33% when I had judged and with raid buffs? (not BL).

I certainly also like to crit, specially now with the buff to crits all healers get. My problem is though, you don't seem to get ANY crit % from it. Like when I have my own personal tank to take care off and I get a non-crit period.. Then he drops. But a crit gem doesn't give me any crit hardly! lol

Spirit.. right. Notice how they made the FL rep healing trinket a spirit one? Yeah, I'm not happy about that. lol I'd rather plant myself with my nose firmly up the boss' rectum and melee for mana. Too graphic? Maybe.. lol

Mastery: If I do alot of tank healing I think it comes to about 10% of my healing. And my mastery is not something I stack it's at about 10.

Speaking of tank healing though.. I do have to heal my beacon on 10 man sometimes. But I am LOVING the 100% transfer of holy light. I'm never one to not heal raid even if I am assigned a tank taking heavy damage. And now they get a holy light. (assuming I haven't been put in the naughty corner with a tank and they are all out of range) lol

All in all, I'm happy with getting used to using WoG now. I have one point in Blessed Life and one in ToR.. I don't have anyone using world of logs so I can't see what I get from them. But I can't imagine it is amazingly game changing either way.

But there.. this post has been informative
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85 Tauren Paladin
10960
Doing quite a bit of reading today, and it is starting to look like Mastery will creeps it way up. So what would happen with stats looking more like this.

Haste/Int
Mastery
Spirit
Crit

So spirit and crit would be reforged to haste, until x number then to mastery. Mastery and haste pieces would not be touched. Gemming and enchanting would change slightly.

My reasoning for this is that with Holy Light spam being as powerful as it is, and the beacon transfers along with all our self heals transferring and bolstering the shield, Mastery has to move up. I do not think it can be ignored.
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6 Troll Shaman
0
Beacon does not proc mastery. If you're beacon healing a tank, mastery is useless unless there's continuous raid damage going out. Otherwise your shields are falling off. The more useful HR and beacon are (which conveniently, they are), the less useful mastery is.

I'm pretty good about not ignoring stuff like beacon and whatnot. It's actually a pretty big reason why I'm NOT advocating mastery.

Crit heals for 2x instead of 1.5x.

100 Crit Rating
~0.558% increased crit chance
On average, this translates into 0.558% extra healing

100 Mastery Rating
~.837% shields
Initially we're seeing that 0.837% shields, but its deprecated by 50% because only 50% of your healing will proc it. Mostly seeing 75%-99% usage of the shields that do come up.

If crit is overhealing at least 25% then mastery starts being comparable. This may be a fair assumption. But the fact of the matter is crit and mastery still suck. And even then, if you want these stats you should be keeping them 1:1 for multiplicative reasons. Spirit sucks too, but not as much as crit and mastery. Haste fills a niche that I'm seeing pop up quite a lot in firelands.

I've got all my spreadsheets up and posted. If you're seeing something wrong with my math, tell me and I'll look again. If you've got some mathematical models showing mastery being better I'd love to see him. I'm not unreasonable or overly stubborn about this kind of stuff. Show me some math and I'm sold.
Edited by Lylthe on 7/5/2011 10:16 AM PDT
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85 Draenei Paladin
2300
Rabel, i'm really curious to see some logs from you in fights where theres aoe raid damage going out. stacking mastery gives you nearly nothing for aoe heals. LoD would only give u maybe 1-2k more absorbs on the targets it hits if your stacking mastery, not nearly worth it. if your purely just tank healing, the mastery imo would all almost go into overhealing. it wouldnt stack up fast enough to make it worth it since you cast times will be incredibly longer without the haste. JW, what is your cast time on divine light since your stacking mastery? i dont see how you can keep a tank up in a "oh crap" moment of high damage with these extended long periods of casting. it just doesnt make any sence. if you wanted to side stack anything but haste it would be crit for the IoL procs. plus i find that crit would make current mastery worth more than actually stacking mastery as well, larger heals into bigger bubbles. not like im trying to bash you, but i see you all over the forums lately trying to claim this stuff about mastery, when i see NO evidence of any1 else following you. there is a reason for this, and that is just that mastery is the bottom of the 3 stats.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
7025
07/05/2011 10:28 AMPosted by Marical
Rabel, i'm really curious to see some logs from you in fights where theres aoe raid damage going out. stacking mastery gives you nearly nothing for aoe heals. LoD would only give u maybe 1-2k more absorbs on the targets it hits if your stacking mastery, not nearly worth it. if your purely just tank healing, the mastery imo would all almost go into overhealing. it wouldnt stack up fast enough to make it worth it since you cast times will be incredibly longer without the haste.
The only logs I have right now that are worth looking at are older ones. Here is a H-Halfus where I mostly tank heal and top a few raid members from a ways back, I believe it was our first kill.
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/ykf5frk8nhxc5120/details/10/?s=2999&e=3353#tab-healspell

The key to remember is where a Haste build makes you much tighter on mana, a Mastery build opens up the ability to use your higher cost spells more to accomplish the same effects. That includes Flash of Light, which while very expensive for its output is still incredibly useful for cases where you'd NEED that Haste to make Holy Light and Divine Light fast enough. I do use Flash, and it works most of the time, though it lends to the same issue with Haste where you must select spells carefully for the situation. If I Flash too much and don't need to that is a problem. Likewise if I am not freeing myself to use it whenever needed and don't heal my tank in time...

07/05/2011 10:28 AMPosted by Marical
plus i find that crit would make current mastery worth more than actually stacking mastery as well, larger heals into bigger bubbles.
This is wrong actually. Nothing makes your Mastery shields stack faster than adding Mastery. Crits are a big boost in its value, but so is the healing you've just done. Haste causes you to produce more healing as well thus increasing the shielding you're doing, but overall if you want that shielding more than the other effects of Haste and Crit you can't do it faster with anything but Mastery.

07/05/2011 10:28 AMPosted by Marical
mastery is the bottom of the 3 stats.
For HPS. HPM needs have risen in Firelands (if temporarily anyway). EHP stats have risen with tank damage. Healing tactics have changed quite a lot due to changes in 4.2. There are a lot of reasons why Mastery would be chosen over the other two stats, and the numbers can't really show it because the stat is so different.

07/05/2011 10:16 AMPosted by Lylthe
Show me some math and I'm sold.
I have none currently. Just my experiences. :|
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85 Draenei Paladin
2300
07/05/2011 01:28 AMPosted by Lylthe
WoW isn't some mystical system where we have to rely on gut instinct or some "feeling" out something. It's a math game wrapped up in pretty graphics and dragons.
idk y but i love this quote lylthe
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90 Human Warrior
10380
The key to remember is where a Haste build makes you much tighter on mana, a Mastery build opens up the ability to use your higher cost spells more to accomplish the same effects. That includes Flash of Light, which while very expensive for its output is still incredibly useful for cases where you'd NEED that Haste to make Holy Light and Divine Light fast enough. I do use Flash, and it works most of the time, though it lends to the same issue with Haste where you must select spells carefully for the situation. If I Flash too much and don't need to that is a problem. Likewise if I am not freeing myself to use it whenever needed and don't heal my tank in time...

The key to remember is that, through the use of hopes and dreams, mastery unicorns you more mana and more healing and more ponies.

Just to be clear, aren't you gearing haste specifically so you can have higher hpm? And no you say you rely on our worst hpm heal to cover for the times that you actually need the haste? Can we have some numbers that actually show this increase in mana efficiency?

This is wrong actually. Nothing makes your Mastery shields stack faster than adding Mastery. Crits are a big boost in its value, but so is the healing you've just done. Haste causes you to produce more healing as well thus increasing the shielding you're doing, but overall if you want that shielding more than the other effects of Haste and Crit you can't do it faster with anything but Mastery.

All he was saying is that increasing your crit, increases the value of your mastery. This is a true statement. If you crit more often, you get larger shields more often. I'm sure that you could figure out what point raising your haste or raising your crit would be more valuable to your mastery than raising mastery. But that would require numbers and maths.

For HPS. HPM needs have risen in Firelands (if temporarily anyway). EHP stats have risen with tank damage. Healing tactics have changed quite a lot due to changes in 4.2. There are a lot of reasons why Mastery would be chosen over the other two stats, and the numbers can't really show it because the stat is so different.

But the numbers can show it.

If you want to argue that once in a blue moon that a mastery shield will save a tank due to an effective health increase, I will counter with a once in a blue moon that haste saves someone because the heal went off 0.2 seconds faster. The only thing left is an HPS/HPM comparison which is all about the numbers that we can calculate. As always, everything gears for consistency not once in a blue moon.

I have none currently. Just my experiences. :|

This is why you have never been taken seriously. You have no data and you don't have the experience in non-trivial content to make a serious argument based on experience.
Edited by Duese on 7/5/2011 1:25 PM PDT
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85 Draenei Paladin
2300
All he was saying is that increasing your crit, increases the value of your mastery. This is a true statement. If you crit more often, you get larger shields more often. I'm sure that you could figure out what point raising your haste or raising your crit would be more valuable to your mastery than raising mastery. But that would require numbers and maths.
Thank you for understanding my point, just didnt feel like arguing it when he seems so dead set. i just dont see how in fights like Beth'tilac phase 2, mastery could pull the HPS needed to keep the raid alive. yes it would help the tank but thats not the prob in fights like those. you need a fast divine light on the beaconed tank(assuming ur rotating beacons with which tank is tanking at that moment) to a light of dawn for raid heals. and mastery on the raid heals wont keep them up. considering HR doesnt count towards absorbs with mastery.
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85 Draenei Paladin
2300
07/01/2011 07:29 AMPosted by Lylthe
After starting to see some of Firelands content, I'm afraid that WotLK style spam is starting to become prevalent again. Just looking at my own guild's logs, 50% overheal is not unusual. Even if I'm careful, it's pretty hard for me to drop that below 40%.
I've actually got an example of myself going WoTLK style in some alt run we did a week or 2 ago. It was late i was tired, didn't feel like trying. but its interesting you brought it up because i've been finding fights to be leading towards that in the same way. Im finding i really don't have to watch my mana much in normal modes. especially in fights where theres a "burn phase" or something along those lines that don't require much healing, between CD's and Judges i can go from 50% to 85% in less than 45seconds of a non-intensive healing phase.

heres that example of the FoL spam fest incase u were curious
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-mqol4u9ycu1zwq6l/sum/healingDone/?s=815&e=1165
again it was just some alt run, not me at my top.
Edited by Marical on 7/5/2011 2:24 PM PDT
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6 Troll Shaman
0
This is getting silly. I shouldn't have to argue for the other sides too.

If we're really trying to maximize single target HPS on a pure spam basis, where we're wasting beacon efficiency on ToR, then yes mastery wins.

100 Haste Rating
0.78% increased haste
100 Crit Rating
~0.558% increased crit chance
100 Mastery Rating
~.837% shields

See? Math.

Now let's start picking apart the arguments. First, if you're doing nothing but spamming a single target, YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG. You are a waste of a slot and shouldn't be raiding. The exception being Baleroc which you do indeed spam the crud out of a single target. Except mastery caps @ 30% of your health when you're healing in the millions.

To consider more realistic situations I'm introducing "deprecation factors". This is to account for the fact some abilities don't proc mastery. And of the proc'ed masteries not all of them are consumed. I'm finding those factors to be 0.5 and 0.75-0.99 respectively. If we want to start making some arguments, then these numbers need to be examined again. I'll admit they aren't solid yet.

To be fair, we need to consider deprecation factors for crit, haste and spirit as well. Spirit's deprecation factor is the amount of time you're sitting @ 100% mana. How convenient that we can almost assume that doesn't happen? (Alysrazor being a notable exception.)

Haste and crit we have overheal. So if we start using some overheal numbers from 0.3-0.4 now things start tieing up.

Oh hey, put in some high overhealing numbers and 100 of any stat starts producing ~0.4% healing across the board. So yeah, even with this in mind, stacking mastery is STILL WRONG, because these stats multiply.

Now we have a 3D contour constrained by the limits
HasteRating+CritRating+MasteryRating = C

Find the max of the curve, blah, blah, blah, calculus simplifies into a 1:1:1 ratio ala DPS arguments.

Then there's this argument that this is all bogus anyways. We don't have a single metric like t DPS. We instead have to consider what I call "limiting factors" that will cause heal fail:
1) Burst HPS.
2) Going OOM.
3) Sustained HPS.

To fix 1, stack haste. Technically stacking mastery would help 1 on a non-Baleroc fight, but you're wasting a beacon, which is basically you nerfing your healing 20%-30% or you're running a beacon swapping strat.

To fix 2, get more spirit and int.

To Fix 3, more int, spirit and then the other stuff.

I'm finding that Firelands content is more a problem of #1 than anything else. So that's why I'm telling people to get a good deal of haste.

Again, give me some math and I'll change my tune. If you see something wrong with my arguments, please tell me and I'll gladly reconsider them. But please don't waste our time with I said/He said/she said.
Edited by Lylthe on 7/5/2011 6:27 PM PDT
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85 Draenei Paladin
2300
07/05/2011 06:24 PMPosted by Lylthe
Find the max of the curve, blah, blah, blah, calculus simplifies into a 1:1:1 ratio ala DPS arguments.
i agree, i believe blizzard intends for it to be this way, and the math shows this to be nearly correct. i feel that the stats are "balanced" in lack of a better term(i dont belive they are actually balanced) but i find certain stats such as haste to be more safe and favorable. Crit=chance to crit, and personally healing, i HATE to count on chance to wheather or not my target dies. i don't like the play style that mastery gives, and again find it unsafe in time of large raid dmg. haste is more versatile, allowing you to get the best HPS and keep the raid alive in most situations. this is how i feel, i believe this is what your trying to say lylth correct me if im wrong. hes not saying any stat is necessarily "better" than another, hes saying haste is more applicable in the current fights than mastery and crit.

EDIT:
I was hoping maybe we could steer this discussion to more of gear, BIS and how it should be gemmed, enchanted, and reforged. what should we be aiming for in our tier sets, is 4 set worth it? which trinkets you plan to use etc. debating on the stats here seems like a waste of time since no1 is convincing any1.
Edited by Marical on 7/5/2011 11:50 PM PDT
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6 Troll Shaman
0
Gemming guidelines
Default to Brilliant Inferno Ruby everywhere.

However, sometimes it's worth sacrificing intellect for lesser stats. I'd recommend these guidelines. Don't forget to activate your meta with 2 yellow.

If short on haste, trade 10 int for 20 haste or better.

If good on haste and in normal mode gear, trade 10 int for 30 crit. If good on haste and in heroic gear, trade 10 int for 20 crit.

Do not trade int for mastery.

Trade 10 int for 20 spirit.


I haven't looked at gear too closely. 4Pis something I'd recommend shooting for. Provided you like haste and spirit, T12 is itemized pretty well.

Slot by slot comparison (normal mode gear only for now)

First. If it drops and its an upgrade. You should take it. Int is still king and if you're in a guild, suck it up and let others take tokens for T11->T12 over your sidegrades since the priority is guild progression over your greedy butt.

It's for this reason I don't normally look too closely at BiS lists. But here we go anyways.

Head
Casque of Flame vs Immolation Headguard
No reason not to get set.

Neck
Firemind Pendant vs Flowform Choker vs Heartstone of Rhyolith
Gem socket means more int. That's our winner. Reforge mastery to spirit if short on mana.

Shoulders
Immolation Mantle vs Spaulders of Manifold Eyes
No reason not to get set.

Cloak
Shroud of Endless Grief vs Wings of Flame vs Flowing Flamewrath Cape
Use Sinestra's cloak if you have access to it. A yellow socket is nice since it's so rare in T12. Otherwise go with rep cloak because of spirit.

Chest
Clutch of the Firemother vs Immolation Breastplate
Good option for haste lovers to go offset.

Wrist
Bracers of Imperious Truths vs Bracers of the Dread Hunter
Valor wrists. Unless you're trying to do 1:1:1 balance, but reforging can take care of that anyways.

Hands
Grips of the Raging Giant Rhyolith vs Holy Flame Gauntlets blacksmithing vs. Immolation Gloves Tier
Blacksmithing gloves if possible to keep 4P. Else gloves for tier bonus.

Waist
Belt of the Seven Seals
That was easy.

Legs
Legplates of Absolute Control vs Immolation Greaves
I'd personally aim for this to be offtier. Socket bonuses means good int.

Feet
Emberforged Elementium Boots Blacksmithing vs Treads of the Penitent Man Majordomo
Blacksmithing is better because of sockets, but you can't heroic versions.

Rings
Soothing Brimstone Circle vs Crystal Prison Band vs. Quicksilver Signet of the Avengers
Rep ring and Soothing brimstone circle

Trinkets
Eye of Blazing Power vs Jaws of Defeat vs Fiery Quintessence vs Rune of Zeth vs Shard of Woe vs
Shard of Woe is ridiculous. 1 cast/2 seconds means 1012.5 mp5 which equal to 1607 spirit passive. That's ridiculous. The proc is good for burst, but it is another CD to juggle.

The last one I'd either go with Eye of Blazing Power or Jaws of Defeat. I'm not quite sure on some of the details for Jaws of Defeat

Cast1: -0
Cast2: -110
...
Cast 11: -1100

or Cast1:-110
Cast2:-220
etc.

But assuming it's more like Case 2 and you get a full 10 casts off in 20 seconds, that's 6050 mana saved (closer to DL spam) or 252.08 mp5 or 400 spirit. FoL spam can make that better, but with as much Judge and WoG/LoD usage we have, this may be better reserved for other healers.

Also don't know the proc rate on Eye of Blazing Power.

Relic
Soulflame Vial vs. Singed Plume of Aviana
Singed Plume of Aviana

Shield
Goblet of Anger vs. Ward of the Red Widow
Use the shield.

Weapon
Eye of Purification vs. Ko'gun, Hammer of the Firelord
Ko'Gun
Edited by Lylthe on 7/14/2011 1:03 AM PDT
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6 Troll Shaman
0
So with zero yellow sockets outside of Sinestra's cloak, I'd throw 1 Reckless Ember Topaz into your relic and 1 into a red slot oddly enough.
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