That it?

90 Human Priest
11775
04/28/2011 04:02 PMPosted by Bashiok
Yeah, I mean that's a tough situation because our feeling is simply that people shouldn't be forced to play the game more than a couple nights a week to keep up on progression.



I don't understand why you think people who play casually SHOULD be able to keep up on progression? I raid 2-3 nights a week, don't care for hard modes but look at 7 bosses as a weak cycle. I don't get why content for the casual can't be a longer process? A two instance design, 7 bosses each, allows people who play 3-4 nights a week to spend all their playtime clearing content. Conversely, casual players who play 1-2 nights a week can instead choose which of the two instances they want to partake in. Will they keep up with the more hardcore guild that week? No. In a few months when the first guild has been farming for weeks and the second guild finally kills the last boss, will they be caught up with progression? Yes. Is this okay because it takes you 6+ months to release new content anyway? Yes. So why less raid content?

I don't care how "epic" you make them, once on farm the bosses will still take 6-8 minutes and people will be done with the content in a couple of hours and, for those of us who exclusively enjoy raiding, you're sucking our subscription for a few hours worth of playtime that week. It seems like you're forcing people to either play the whole experience or waste their money and that's not exactly customer friendly. Its like DirectTV cutting half the movie channels and replacing them with Andy Griffith reruns and saying I have to pay the same amount or choose to watch less TV. At least with DirectTV I can cancel those channels and pay less - I can't with WoW.

And please don't choose to make a snarky remark focusing on how much you love Andy Griffith reruns and that you'd love it if your cable provider did that.
Edited by Murannan on 4/28/2011 7:00 PM PDT
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85 Worgen Druid
4380
04/28/2011 06:57 PMPosted by Bashiok
We are the player base who play the game they design, when have we ever been skeptical and been proved wrong.


Literally every patch. On hundreds of individual changes. #justsaying


You guys would like to think that, not trying to be rude.Ok some patched yes, and im going to find it hard to believe that raiders will be pleased with only 7 bosses in a tier. Coming from a raider. I'd probably be a good judge.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
4875
Right, I get that. I'm just not seeing what the other stuff is going in that's resulting in what seems to be less content. It just looks like less content, which makes it seem like the finite pool of resources got smaller.

I'm really not trying to point fingers, I'm just trying to express the exasperation that myself and a lot of others are feeling. I've been a loyal supporter of Blizzard for a long time. Hell, I've hung out with you at Blizzcon. It just kinda feels like the push in Cataclysm has been moving away from what made me enjoy playing the game for so long, and I don't understand the reasons why.

I like raiding 4 days a week. Posts in here make it sound like there will not be enough content to sustain that in 4.2, at least for longer than a couple months. That's really all I'm worried about.

Well, I appreciate your continued inquisitiveness, it really makes the back and forth of a conversation that much more inviting. I do like talking to you guys when I'm able.

I think you're right, though. We've trended toward choosing quality over quantity with some of our content creation, and while that isn't usually a bad thing, it's rarely a good thing from a perception point of view. I think that's something we realize but - - and this is sort of a difficult concept to get across sometimes - - is that the game is... really big, and by the laws of physics really big things don't change direction very quickly. Depending on which part of the development team or individual developers you're talking about, they could be working on content we won't even announce until six months later. Maybe longer. That's just the necessity of our development to ensure we're getting patches and expansions out. So these types of evaluations of what direction the game is in and any changes or general philosophy we want to alter, we may begin making a course correction, but we're just not able to hit that new heading until the entire ship finishes turning. It's also not too rare that in the middle of altering our direction, we change our minds.

Anyway, I don't want that to be discouraging because it's not true of all things, but it is generally true of things like planning patch content which takes many, many months of development. And even then, like I said, things can change midway, but that's not always a bad thing.


So the change you guys are trying to implement is that we get less content but high quality content?
Edited by Iiris on 4/28/2011 7:14 PM PDT
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85 Draenei Shaman
3715
04/28/2011 06:57 PMPosted by Bashiok
Literally every patch. On hundreds of individual changes. #justsaying


These forums contain enough active posters that of course, you're going to get just about every possible perspective listed, by at least a poster or two, on every subject. And -of course- there is always silent majority (which does -not- imply acceptance, just complacence/ignorance (which I mean in the sense of not staying abreast of changes/news not personal intelligence)).

I would, however, be reasonably interested to have cases pointed out where there was a substantial cohesive playerbase sentiment, that later these same players agreed the disliked changes were actually for the best. (Aka, not that these players simply quit the game, thus the majority afterwords were those that were complacent or new to the game and knew no differently.)
Edited by Ophidon on 4/28/2011 7:11 PM PDT
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We think 7 is our current ideal for number of bosses in a raid.


It's not even out yet and I feel the boredom already.
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90 Worgen Warrior
8775
The playerbase often demands silly things. Now something is demanded that seems silly, but is actually kind of reasonable.

I don't know, I'd have to see the bosses before I start jumping around screaming "MOAR I WANT MOAR".
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86 Troll Priest
11670
I'm just tired with how schizo a lot of the developers stated goals have been for the last year.


"We want to release a few places per tier, going back to a TBC style." This didn't even last the first tier of the expansion.


"You'll have plenty to raid, even going from being able to do 10 and 25 man both." Again, this has also now been destroyed.



Look, please understand where I myself am personally coming from. I don't care if you release 100 bosses in a cycle. I don't care if you release 1. What I CARE about is my guild, and the magical crap we have to do to keep people interested in playing. We were able to keep us a 25 man guild when we heard what this expansion was going to be like, we're trying to keep people playing to down the few new bosses we have left.


Here's the bottom line for you. I can already see what a situation I'm in now with only 4 of the hardest bosses left in the cycle left to look forward to to how many months it takes 4.2 to hit. Now we're told the only "new" we're going to see is 7 bosses. Of the 7, some HAVE to be pushovers or the patch is going to be broken. Of the 7, I don't know how long it'll take to beat them on normal, but I'm concerned with how much we'll have to "farm" normal before we're safe to move onto heroic. And considering this isn't the type of thing where we can freely do some stuff on normal to get gear and gear up, and then do heroic some other fights, I'm worried, and think I have reason to be.


7 bosses in one zone is NOT enough to split difficulty up sufficiently enough to both give a feeling of "progression" and "farming" in one week. I can't say it any simpler than this, and any prior tier that this was the case with has failed, as was the case with ToGC. This long in the game's life cycle, how have the developers not realized this simple truth?
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85 Worgen Druid
4380

7 bosses in one zone is NOT enough to split difficulty up sufficiently enough to both give a feeling of "progression" and "farming" in one week. I can't say it any simpler than this, and any prior tier that this was the case with has failed, as was the case with ToGC. This long in the game's life cycle, how have the developers not realized this simple truth?


well said
Edited by Ajaxis on 4/28/2011 7:18 PM PDT
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85 Draenei Shaman
3715
7 bosses in one zone is NOT enough to split difficulty up sufficiently enough to both give a feeling of "progression" and "farming" in one week. I can't say it any simpler than this, and any prior tier that this was the case with has failed, as was the case with ToGC. This long in the game's life cycle, how have the developers not realized this simple truth?


To harp on it once more, it's even slightly worse than that unless I'm mistaken. I believe it's 6 bosses in Firelands, with the 7th boss simply being the T12 Baradin Hold boss.
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85 Draenei Paladin
7470
my only issues with this patch is the fact that without rag around whos going to be the next endgame boss cause i cant imagine it will be deathwing i mean its a bit to early in the expansion for him to come out i mean after we killed all of the bosses in BWD/ ToTFW and BOT its just seems there aren't any more raid bosses to kill unless you guys to make a new troll raid or do something with that old god that you guys have being hinting about with all the in game references to him or her(a female old god would be cool)
Edited by Seraphy on 4/28/2011 7:30 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
9330
04/28/2011 07:27 PMPosted by Seraphy
my only issues with this firelands is the fact that without rag around whos going to be the next endgame boss cause i cant imagine it will be deathwing i mean its a bit to early in the expansion for him to come out i mean after we killed all of the bosses in BWD/ ToTFW and BOT its just seems there aren't any more raid bosses to kill unless you guys to make a new troll raid or do something with that old god that you guys have being hinting about with all the in game references to him or her(a female old god would be cool)

Queen Azshara
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
13840
04/28/2011 06:50 PMPosted by Bashiok
I think you're right, though.


GOING ON MY TWITTER.

04/28/2011 06:50 PMPosted by Bashiok
We've trended toward choosing quality over quantity with some of our content creation, and while that isn't usually a bad thing, it's rarely a good thing from a perception point of view. I think that's something we realize but - - and this is sort of a difficult concept to get across sometimes - - is that the game is... really big, and by the laws of physics really big things don't change direction very quickly. Depending on which part of the development team or individual developers you're talking about, they could be working on content we won't even announce until six months later. Maybe longer. That's just the necessity of our development to ensure we're getting patches and expansions out. So these types of evaluations of what direction the game is in and any changes or general philosophy we want to alter, we may begin making a course correction, but we're just not able to hit that new heading until the entire ship finishes turning. It's also not too rare that in the middle of altering our direction, we change our minds.


Yeah, I follow. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of what we're seeing currently is based on ideas set in motion before ICC was even released (it sounds kind of like that's what you're saying). And the main thing that's kept me a Blizzard fan for the past 6 years of WoW is that when there's an issue, and it turns out to actually be an issue, you guys tend to fix it. I have complete confidence that, if 4.2 does turn out to be too light on content, you'll learn and adapt for future patches.

A few extra thoughts:

It's okay if not every boss has its own new, unique model. Obviously people prefer it, but if Firelands had, say, 9 bosses, and only 6 of them had new and exciting models, I think that'd be okay. It'd certainly be preferable to 6 bosses that I'm done with in 2 months and then spend 2 hours clearing every week (should we find ourselves in that position).

Not every boss has to be a two-week wipefest before we finally get them down to be rewarding. We like easier bosses from time to time, to start out the tier or just have a short "break" from serious progression mode inbetween the really challenging ones.

I think a lot of the flak is also coming from the fact that we'll be coming off of 6+ months of what is potentially the most grueling tier of content in World of Warcraft history. I'd say the general consensus among raiders (I don't have empirical evidence, but based on the people in my guild and the members of the community I hear from) is that we kind of want to put this tier behind us and move on. So when our first glimpse of the next tier carries a small hint that maybe it'll be the polar opposite (ie: too short) we get our panties all twisted up. But it ultimately doesn't matter how loud people scream now if Firelands is just plain good, so just make it good :)
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85 Draenei Shaman
3715
04/28/2011 07:24 PMPosted by Damonu
Do the heroic modes, and talk later.


Heroic modes are not the point. Nobody is debating that there are 12 bosses to 'learn'. The largest issue under discussion is that once everything is on farm (which will happen substantially faster than in T11 unless the encounters are substantially harder on average, which is a problem itself), you are still only killing 6 bosses, and this will likely be a one night a week event. Which is equivalent to telling pvpers they can only do 10 battlegrounds or arenas a week, and the rest of their time must be spent doing other aspects of the game they do not enjoy.
Edited by Ophidon on 4/28/2011 7:35 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
13215
04/28/2011 01:55 PMPosted by Trixis
BTW 5 months between patches doesn't feel faster.


What would you like the programmers to do? Start crapping out new content?

I think they did that once already. It was called the Argent Tournament. Let's not go down that road again, shall we?
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85 Draenei Paladin
7470

04/28/2011 07:30 PMPosted by Kajirin
Queen Azshara


blizz has already said that she's isnt come out to play in this expansion
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85 Tauren Hunter
1030
04/28/2011 07:30 PMPosted by Ophidon
Do the heroic modes, and talk later.


Heroic modes are not the point. Nobody is debating that there are 12 bosses to 'learn'. The largest issue under discussion is that once everything is on farm (which will happen substantially faster than in T11 unless the encounters are substantially harder on average, which is a problem itself), you are still only killing 6 bosses, and this will likely be a one night a week event. Which is equivalent to telling pvpers they can only do 10 battlegrounds or arenas a week, and the rest of their time must be spent doing other aspects of the game they do not enjoy.


Oh, and this is different from...? Right, it has always been this way.
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90 Human Paladin
8855



Literally every patch. On hundreds of individual changes. #justsaying


You guys would like to think that, not trying to be rude.Ok some patched yes, and im going to find it hard to believe that raiders will be pleased with only 7 bosses in a tier. Coming from a raider. I'd probably be a good judge.


A single player from a single player level? Feel free to voice your opinion, but don't think you're right in asserting it. You are by no means sufficient to determine what is or isn't satisfactory from a player base standpoint.
Edited by Jassu on 4/28/2011 7:36 PM PDT
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86 Troll Priest
11670
I have complete confidence that, if 4.2 does turn out to be too light on content, you'll learn and adapt for future patches.





The problem in general is that having faith is fine, but trying to keep a guild through these constant blizzard experiments is getting incredibly old, incredibly fast. How many more hoops are we going to be forced to jump through while you fine tune here? Why can't you just release new content without reinventing the wheel every darn patch? There are PEOPLE playing this game. If something is working, why on earth are you changing?


Making a major change for an expansion is one thing. Constantly changing directions from one patch to the next that seemingly contradict each other during an expansion is just flat out uncalled for.
Edited by Meia on 4/28/2011 7:38 PM PDT
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85 Worgen Druid
4380


You guys would like to think that, not trying to be rude.Ok some patched yes, and im going to find it hard to believe that raiders will be pleased with only 7 bosses in a tier. Coming from a raider. I'd probably be a good judge.


A single player from a single player level? Feel free to voice your opinion, but don't think you're right in asserting it. You are by no means sufficient to determine what is or isn't satisfactory from a player base standpoint.


From a raiders standpoint at my level then yes i am. So all these people saying 7 bosses isnt enough are all my accounts. Some people just agree with everything a blue posts say. They are not your typical playerbase either.
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