That it?

1 Night Elf Hunter
0
04/29/2011 12:27 AMPosted by Soreni
I wasn't aware a suggestion was an insult. The hard modes are there for people who are bored of the current content and want something more to do. If you do not want to do it, then it's not Blizzard's fault. The content is there, it's by choice that people don't do it since it's "buffed-up versions of bosses they've already killed".


Heroic versions of raids you have already downed are not comparable to genuine new content with entirely novel art, boss mechanics, and loot. It's recycled content that you get the pleasure of doing immediately after mastering the normal version of that content.

The more that heroic versions of raids are relied upon to bridge the increasingly-long gaps between content patches, the more players are going to dislike logging in for raid night.

Again, this is a problem of stagnation. Heroic modes can only do so much to stave off irritation and boredom.


Which I'm not going to argue, however, hypothetically, let's say instead of including hard-modes for each boss in T11, they included 6 more bosses of similar difficulty and removed hard-modes all together (I'm using 6 as a number I pulled out of thin-air, but based on time it would take to actually create a new instance, new bosses, completely new mechanics and loot tables versus taking existing models and adding to the encounters and tweaking numbers) people would still get bored of content getting stagnant. I'll be perfectly honest, I found normal modes this tier to be easy. Harder than T7, by a long-shot, but still fairly simple in execution. If they included 6 more bosses similar to these instead of hard-modes, a lot more people would become bored a lot faster (world-firsts for ALL content would've been pushed before January).

As wonderful as having both 15+ bosses and hard-modes for each sounds, it's just not feasible. If both the normal modes and the hard-modes of T12 are interesting, then Blizzard will have succeeded at what they set out to accomplish. If everybody's bored of the encounters within the first few months, then they failed. Although it seems to me that with a reduced load of encounters to design, they can concentrate on the quality of them and that is what I'm hoping for. My ideal schedule for content would be a similar tier as 11 with multiple bosses, followed by something like they have planned for T12 for a cool-down period/breather, followed by another T11 for T13, a short breather in T13.5 and a final finale for T14. But that's just me.

Apologies if some of that was incoherent, it's getting late.
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100 Human Paladin
22285
04/28/2011 09:18 PMPosted by Bashiok
Those instances and daily areas were originally intended to release with Burning Crusade


To be fair, Firelands was announced as part of the release content at Blizzcon 2009 along with the Abyssal Maw 5 man then pushed back at BC2010. That said, delaying it was probably the right choice given the amount of raid content that did make release and remains uncompleted by a pretty large number of people (I think, I don't have any solid numbers to back that up), and the addition of the huge daily quest hub which coincides with the raid which sounds like a lot of fun. At first, I was kinda hoping the War of the Ancients raid would release at the same time as Firelands, but after I've thought about it more, I think I'm glad to only have a single 7 boss raid to worry about. And it certainly allows more work to be put into things like the art design on the tier gear - having it match up with the denizes of the plane should be really cool.
Edited by Liandroa on 4/29/2011 12:43 AM PDT
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100 Human Priest
17575
While I appreciate very much the feedback given by the blues in this thread I think the OP has a very valid point for a large number of reasons. I know that it's too late now for any changes to happen for 4.2 but maybe Blizz can take this feedback into consideration when preparing the next patch and are contemplating only delivering a single raid again.

For those of you that look at me and say your haven't completed the current content so why are you complaining, please actually read my post first.

First. By only having 1 raid you limit the raiding opportunities of many people.
Example: I run a guild with about 15 people that are raid ready/capable. At the moment we are working on Cho'gal. So, if someone from the team I'm primarily using for that boss isn't able to show up one night it's no problem. We'll head to another raid so they don't miss out on the kill they've worked hard for. 4.2 basically says, too bad son. Loyalty to raid teams is not possible.

Second. There is no opportunity for diversifying progression.
Example: Let's assume our guild get's the first bosses down after a month (which I think is generous as there are many guilds out there that will be a heck of a lot faster). Our progression is now limited to a single boss. 1 fight ONLY. If we feel like we are banging our heads against a wall there is NOTHING we can do. At the moment I can say let's stop attempting this guy tonight and do another raid so that I can spend a bit of time analysing the logs and reading more info to see if there's something we can do to help us. 4.2 basically says, too bad son. Your head is gonna get mighty sore those nights.

Third. There is no room for blizzard mistakes.
Example: Sorry to say but the last 18 months the number of first week bugs post patch has been rather astonishing. (I'm a software developer so I actually DO understand why and how this happens. Hire more testers). The problem is now that everyone is going to be trying to raid in the one place. So the next time you introduce a bug instead of everyone going no problem we'll head off and do a different raid until it's fixed...4.2 basically says, too bad son. No raiding for you tonight. Good night.

Fourth. A change is as good as a holiday.
Example: Going to the same place every single week gets OLD really fast. With no option to break up the monotonicity of this raiding becomes boring faster then usual. Now, I know people will say "Hang on, Ulduar was the only raid etc..." yes but it had how many bosses again? So, if we were working on one keeper we could change to a different one or go back and kill an optional boss we left alone.

Fifth. Gearing up is going to be frustrating.
Example: There's no way to save a raid ID now in order to focus efforts on downing a single boss and still have a way to generate some VP income and epic loot drops from raiding. Loot tables are going to be even more frustrating with basically only 6 bosses to gain loot from while working up to a Rag kill. (BH is obviously a way to get 1/2 pieces of loot a week which still has a 20+% chance of being absolutely useless as our 10man raid doesn't represent every class).

Anyway, these are just some points I'd like to make. I hope they make sense from a logical perspective. 4.2 is NOT just affecting people who play 4+ nights a week. It potentially is effecting even 2-3night (2hrs/night) raiders in a very harsh way.

Hope this helps in the future...

Cheers,
Krag
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85 Draenei Shaman
3715
04/29/2011 12:37 AMPosted by Cyrot
I realize there are players with lifestyles in which they don't have to work full time, and I have no problem with them or those that do work sacrificing a social life in order to be the best in the world.


As I have thought about a lot, I believe a majority of the middle of the pack raiders (3n/wk) spend less total time in game than casuals. We just prefer to play the game in a far more structured fashion. Except for the occasional altoholics, we don't hardly log on except raid time. Casuals seem to tend to just log on to futz about and socialize for indefinite periods of time. :/
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100 Night Elf Rogue
14095
04/29/2011 12:43 AMPosted by Ophidon
I realize there are players with lifestyles in which they don't have to work full time, and I have no problem with them or those that do work sacrificing a social life in order to be the best in the world.


As I have thought about a lot, I believe a majority of the middle of the pack raiders (3n/wk) spend less total time in game than casuals. We just prefer to play the game in a far more structured fashion. Except for the occasional altoholics, we don't hardly log on except raid time. Casuals seem to tend to just log on to futz about and socialize for indefinite periods of time. :/


Yeah, it's not only about lifestyle differences and play times.

For example:

I raid 7.5 hours a week. That's three nights a week for 2.5 hours at a time.

And I've downed 12/12 normal and 4/13 heroic in my 10-player raid guild.
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90 Gnome Warlock
12375


Incredibly good points

Cheers,
Krag



All of this
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1 Night Elf Hunter
0
04/28/2011 10:38 PMPosted by Bashiok
True, except it's just one more boss, not two. :( There are only 6 in Firelands, the 7th boss is the new BH boss.


Incorrect. 6 + Rag.


My RL's monthlies have always been a raid boss.

Quit recycling old content!
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100 Human Paladin
22285
Fifth. Gearing up is going to be frustrating.


I am interested to see how an entire tier of loot is going to be distributed among 7 bosses to end up with a set of 391 gear for all the various armor types. I guess they could cut all non tier pieces for the big 5 slots and force players into T12. Doing that in the current tier would drop it to 82 armor pieces and 28 weapons. With a number around there, it'd be 15 or 16 items on each boss' loot table. Current bosses have 12ish.
Edited by Liandroa on 4/29/2011 1:38 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
13460
04/29/2011 01:02 AMPosted by Derpdadurr


Incorrect. 6 + Rag.


My RL's monthlies have always been a raid boss.

Quit recycling old content!


Rag was supposed to be re-done as a Raid boss. It was said years ago that we'd face him again at his FULL power in the elemental plane of fire.

Blizz is simply fulfilling a promise they made to us a long time ago. It's hardly recycled content at all.
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100 Human Warrior
17815
I'm sorry but 7 bosses is not ideal for raiders. Did you not learn from TOC? Heck, atleast TOC allowed you to do 10 and 25 mans which totaled 10 bosses for the week.

Sugarcoat it all you want, 7 bosses is still 7. Ulduar had 14 and was amazing. I don't remember anyone complaining about that.


Yeah, I mean that's a tough situation because our feeling is simply that people shouldn't be forced to play the game more than a couple nights a week to keep up on progression. We realize though that some people legitimately like playing every night, and having real reasons to be in the game and playing with raid groups and such. There's obviously things like alts, professions, achievements, PvP, to keep people busy, but it's ultimately something we'd like to get a better handle on. Having content that isn't forcing people to log in every night, but still offering something that's meaningful for those that do. Understand though that by definition those types of things can't lead to player power or else everyone will be back to having to log on every single night to keep pace. Anyway, it's something we very much want to get a better handle on, but it's not something we're going to solve easily.

Sorry, but that's pretty weak. We raid 3 nights per week, 3.5 hours per and will comfortably be finished the 13 heroic bosses you introduced across 3 raid instances before 4.2 hits (currently 11/13, Sinestra being the latest). Cutting that number almost in half seems.... lacking.

This is a shame, since we think the current raid tier has been absolutely amazing.
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90 Gnome Warlock
12375


My RL's monthlies have always been a raid boss.

Quit recycling old content!


Rag was supposed to be re-done as a Raid boss. It was said years ago that we'd face him again at his FULL power in the elemental plane of fire.

Blizz is simply fulfilling a promise they made to us a long time ago. It's hardly recycled content at all.


woosh
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85 Human Death Knight
4455
04/28/2011 06:50 PMPosted by Bashiok
We've trended toward choosing quality over quantity with some of our content creation, and while that isn't usually a bad thing, it's rarely a good thing from a perception point of view. I think that's something we realize but - - and this is sort of a difficult concept to get across sometimes - - is that the game is... really big, and by the laws of physics really big things don't change direction very quickly. Depending on which part of the development team or individual developers you're talking about, they could be working on content we won't even announce until six months later


Why can't they do both? Why can't they give us quantity and quality? WoW has over 12 million subscribers, thats around 2 billion dollars a year, not even counting the money made from expansions and all the ridiculous micro transactions, and your telling me they can't give us both a high quality and quantity worth of content???

Now I'm no developer, so I can't even begin to fathom how long it must take to implement even the simplest designs, but I'm sure having a hard time wrapping my head around this concept.

It seems like Blizzard is trying to run Cataclysm with the same Development team they used for BC
Edited by Dizo on 4/29/2011 2:26 AM PDT
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80 Night Elf Druid
3220
04/28/2011 06:57 PMPosted by Bashiok
We are the player base who play the game they design, when have we ever been skeptical and been proved wrong.


Literally every patch. On hundreds of individual changes. #justsaying


Yeah, that post you're reponding to is pretty content free, but your response is just baiting, borderline trolling as well.

Rise above.
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90 Human Warlock
10100


After six years, without cancelling my sub, I am tired of giving Blizz the benefit of the doubt personally.


Bye, you won't be missed.

If you think a raid with 7 bosses all of whom are completely unique skins with vastly different mechanics, paired with over 60 quests (These are dailies alone, not the quests leading up to them), alongside all the new lore and the Legendary Staff quest chain which is also supposed to be large is a small amount of content for Blizzard, you should just stop posting right now.

Again, you won't be missed.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
14095


After six years, without cancelling my sub, I am tired of giving Blizz the benefit of the doubt personally.


Bye, you won't be missed.

If you think a raid with 7 bosses all of whom are completely unique skins with vastly different mechanics, paired with over 60 quests (These are dailies alone, not the quests leading up to them), alongside all the new lore and the Legendary Staff quest chain which is also supposed to be large is a small amount of content for Blizzard, you should just stop posting right now.

Again, you won't be missed.


Do you know his friends? His guildmates? The people on his server who have played with them?

No?

Then how do you know he won't be missed?

What if one of your friends, a guildmate, feels exactly the same as him and quits World of Warcraft because of it? Would you not miss your friend?

Please stop trying to make yourself feel better by rejecting other points of view.
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
10900


As much as we would love for every employee to be a master artist, programmer, modeler, animator, composer, etc. etc. individual people have individual crafts. While potentially hilarious, you wouldn't want the UI designers to be crafting raid bosses.


After some consideration, yes, I want this. It would be hilarious.

Imagine if the boss fight involved navigating through menus and various other UI mechanics. Maybe it could even fill your screen with some sort of puzzle.


Anyway, I just wanted to give props to Blizzard with regards to the new daily questing stuff. It sounds awesome. I'm honestly not really into raiding, and Wrath of the Lich King was really disappointing in terms of non-raid endgame content. Burning Crusade's was excellent, without enough interesting daily quests and reputation factions that you could enjoy plenty of endgame content without even setting foot in a raid. Isle of Quel'danas was some of the most fun I've had in endgame.

So, more of that stuff, please!
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100 Human Warlock
12205

If you think a raid with 7 bosses all of whom are completely unique skins with vastly different mechanics, paired with over 60 quests (These are dailies alone, not the quests leading up to them), alongside all the new lore and the Legendary Staff quest chain which is also supposed to be large is a small amount of content for Blizzard, you should just stop posting right now.

pssssttt. the stupid quests have NOTHING to do with the raid content. they are NOT a suitable replacement for more raid bosses.
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85 Tauren Warrior
3670
04/29/2011 03:11 AMPosted by Ivanzephyr
If you think a raid with 7 bosses all of whom are completely unique skins with vastly different mechanics,


Here's what I want to know. Why should this be an exciting thing and not the norm?

Like, seriously. For the company that seems to pride itself on making sure it's material is the tip of the iceberg, and for the most part it is, why should we be "gifted" that they make everything unique and grand, and not just the way it's done because it's Blizzard?
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