That it?

84 Night Elf Warrior
1865
04/28/2011 03:12 PMPosted by Bashiok
so it'll be 2 months until the PTR starts


Oh, you're gonna be, like, totally eating hats. You will masticate multiple hats.


Oh I see. So we'll be eating hats because Blizzard is awesome? Now I get it.
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55 Undead Death Knight
90
04/28/2011 03:10 PMPosted by Bashiok
Previously a lot of bosses were larger versions of existing models, which was fine, but that tradeoff is made somewhere.


This is the troubling statement as far as I'm concerned.

"Tradeoff" is not something that as a paying customer I like to hear.

If I was buying a car and I got a totally redesigned model instead of a tweaked version of something that was already out but that I was going to have to deal with less features, I'd look at something else.

We don't have that luxury. You have us by the throat.
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85 Human Death Knight
0
Its sad to see so many players pretend like the game needs to be designed around them or that they understand what developing a game is like.

I have direct knowledge of how hard and difficult it is to support, develop and expand a game like WoW. I work in software development, and I can only imagine the issues that this game has to deal with on a daily basis.

We are getting MORE content MORE often now. There were 3 major raids at the start of Cataclysm and you are complaining because there is only one more on the way?

Did you miss the release of 4.1?
Not every single patch is dedicated to the 20% of the player base that is the pinnacle of raiding. Some resources have to be dedicated to keeping the game alive and accessible to everyone. The new ZA and ZG builds are awesome. Great content for both HC and less HC players. YOu can't point at previous expansions and try to compare content at a single points. Many times Blizzard had already completed the content and kept in on the back burner or the game had a different philosophy at the time.

The firelands raid looks awesome and I am sure it will keep you busy enough. If you aren't raiding it 4 nights a week I have some advice for you:

Find a new hobby, go outside, get a drink, ride a bike.

If you life involves raiding 4 nights a week, this is not your game. This is not 7 years ago. This is not vanilla WoW.
Edited by Gracus on 4/29/2011 6:21 AM PDT
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72 Night Elf Rogue
770
04/28/2011 03:21 PMPosted by Imbeefy
allowed you to do 10 and 25 mans


I still think this little snippit from a very early post has become a larger issue with players in feeling there is a lack of content all around. I have my 4 lvl 85's, but I can't stand the play of a 5-mans, I'm stuck with 1 character with that has a proper ilvl in order to participate in raids.

Its claimed they want enough content for all types of players but this sure isn't the way things are looking. Smaller raids, back stuck in only one type of raid size, 5 mans becoming released only has heroics, a pencil taken to old areas to make them look new. All a bit a bleh imho.
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85 Human Death Knight
0
04/29/2011 06:26 AMPosted by Mayuki
allowed you to do 10 and 25 mans


I still think this little snippit from a very early post has become a larger issue with players in feeling there is a lack of content all around. I have my 4 lvl 85's, but I can't stand the play of a 5-mans, I'm stuck with 1 character with that has a proper ilvl in order to participate in raids.

Its claimed they want enough content for all types of players but this sure isn't the way things are looking. Smaller raids, back stuck in only one type of raid size, 5 mans becoming released only has heroics, a pencil taken to old areas to make them look new. All a bit a bleh imho.


Why don't you work on the ilvl of your undergeared toons? What exactly are you look for?
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85 Draenei Mage
1930
I would like to raid on five toons in one week. Everyone has their mains and it used to be you didn't have a lot of time to play anything else. I don't mean having a bank alt, alchemist, enchanter, etc... I'm talking about being able to raid on a variety of classes and see what the game has to offer. It seems very appealing to me. It also holds more possibilities of variety. DPS one night, heals another, tanking another, and so on. I don't really want alt TOC type of runs where its that easy, but content short enough to raid in the same week on different toons sounds like a good thing.
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83 Troll Mage
1150
(didn't read all 17 pages)

But anyways, I heard that the Heroic encounters are going to be a lot different in terms of mechanics to the fight.

So its kinda like 6 bosses with 2 different strategies.
Edited by Justdance on 4/29/2011 6:50 AM PDT
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85 Draenei Shaman
3715
I would like to raid on five toons in one week. Everyone has their mains and it used to be you didn't have a lot of time to play anything else. I don't mean having a bank alt, alchemist, enchanter, etc... I'm talking about being able to raid on a variety of classes and see what the game has to offer. It seems very appealing to me. It also holds more possibilities of variety. DPS one night, heals another, tanking another, and so on. I don't really want alt TOC type of runs where its that easy, but content short enough to raid in the same week on different toons sounds like a good thing.


I believe, however, you will find that the majority of the raiding playerbase does not share this sentiment. First, there are many raiders who simply do not wish to devote that amount of time to the game, futzing about with alts (and correspondingly spending more total time online while ironically calling raiders no-lifers) has always been more prevalent among the casual playerbase than the raider playerbase. We simply wish to have enough raiding to do on our mains (2n/week at -least- even after everything relevant is on farm), as has always been the case except for ToC.

Also, the logistics of coordinating alts within a guild such that there are anywhere near 5 different teams all well (enough) distributed over the different required rolls is nearly impossible. This means pugs for the alts, and pugs are yet another way the raiding playerbase sees the casuals using their online time inefficiently, that we are not.
Edited by Ophidon on 4/29/2011 7:11 AM PDT
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43 Night Elf Hunter
11020

You mean you enjoyed five months of buggy raid content until the patch gave us two instances that were announced as being in the game as of release, followed by five months of waiting for a patch with nothing but in-game voice chat, followed by several more months until we got nothing but Zul'Aman, followed by several more months until Sunwell? There was almost a full year between BT/MH and Sunwell for raiding guilds, and there was a lot of complaints about burnout then.


I'm not the person that you quoted but I'm saying that I loved the hell out of an expansion that gave me Kara, SSC, Tempest Keep, Gruul's Lair, Magtheridon's Lair, Zul'Aman, Mount Hyjal, Black Temple and Sunwell. Nothing has compared to BC yet IMO.
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85 Human Paladin
8635
04/28/2011 11:29 PMPosted by Popsecret
What I do not understand is why, for example, 239 heroics in Ulduar are followed by 245 normals in ToC. Or 258 to 264, etc. Why not just have heroic progression of ilvl and normal progression be different? i.e. - 359 to 372 normals and 372 to 385 heroic. Then you still do the VP and JP switch like you plan. Am I missing something? Is this harder to tune fights for? The hardcores don't care if normal modes are a breeze because they are for them anyway.


If the previous tier was still relevant, it would be "required" to continue to farm it for gear, because you always have people joining the guild, or raiders needing that one rare super-powerful item (traditionally trinkets and weapons) from the previous tier.

They tried this out back in Vanilla. T2 pants dropped from the last boss of Molten Core (10 bosses), Onyxia dropped T2 hats, the rest of T2 was in BWL (8 bosses), and AQ40 was a slight jump up to T2.5 (9 bosses, though if you were halfway through AQ40 you could probably drop MC). That was over 20 bosses a week for guilds to run, because the older tiers were still relevant for enough people that guilds "had" to run them. That's before you include ZG (for the idol enchants) and AQ20 (enchanting recipes, weapons, and skill books).

Classic had a lot of "required" raiding, and most of the time it was just loot farming, not really interesting raiding. I'd rather not go back to the days of doing the same bosses for a year and a half just for the sake of loot farming.


First of all, they didn't just "try this out" in vanilla. New raid instances didn't overwrite old raid instances until the invention of emblems (which are now points) in 2.4. WoW has changed significantly since vanilla and gear is VASTLY more accessible. If you actually read my post, you'd notice that I wasn't talking about removing VP or JP or even keeping previous normal modes current. It's just the idea of having normal mode progression leapfrog heroic mode progression that I find disagreeable.

More importantly though, I don't agree with your line of thinking here. The people you're talking about, that will be tired of having run 13/13 heroic for months before 4.2 drops, would be unaffected by them having the ilvl's the way I suggest. They wouldn't have to go back. Likewise, the people who never ever do heroic modes and only play 1 night a week like the blue post said won't be affected either. They just raid once a week in 372 firelands' 7 bosses. What this would affect is all the people who are INBETWEEN! Which is clearly a lot from the comments I'm seeing in this post.

I posted this question in this thread, which is mostly about the limited number of boss fights coming after what will probably be 7 or more months since t11 content came out, for a reason. We're being made to wait a long time for less. But if they didn't obliterate the old tier by implementing a new tier, they could release things faster without rushing anyone. Think of it this way, if t11 normal is 1 and heroic is 2, then t12 should be normal is 2 and heroic is 3. If it's done the way I assume it will be done based on Wrath, t12 normal will be 2.5 and heroics 3.5. I'm saying I'd rather normal progression be 1-2/2-3/3-etc. with each patch instead of 1-2.5-3.5-etc. and casuals just skip heroic content. (Hardcore raiders would still just do current heroics like they always do) Does that clear up my point for you? It makes more sense to me to have old heroics and new normals be equivalent because that allows 1) Double the content for all the people who aren't 13/13 badasses or 6/12 1 night a week 2) More time for casuals to clear content. 3) Less overgearing of previous tier that the designers worked so hard at. 4) Lastly, this would also help with hardcores not having farm VP in heroic dungeons every new patch because VP would give 372 gear they already have. Just new people would have to do it. There's LESS loot farming, not more.

tl;dr - Not leapfrogging ilvls, but instead going 359 normal to 372 normal and 372 heroic to 385 heroic means casual raiders still get a chance to do old heroic fights that are new to them AND new firelands fights. Then do smaller patches faster like you said blizz.
Edited by Popsecret on 4/29/2011 7:14 AM PDT
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80 Draenei Paladin
6665
04/28/2011 06:51 PMPosted by Ajaxis
We are the player base who play the game they design, when have we ever been skeptical and been proved wrong.

Removing portals from Dalaran / Shatt will KILL WoW! *wrong*
Dungeon finder auto-de button will KILL Enchanting! *wrong*
Circle of Life cooldown patch 2.4 will KILL priests! *wrong*
Spirit based mana regen nerf will KILL healing! *wrong*
Removing raid attunements will KILL raiding! *wrong*
Not resetting MMR rating will KILL arenas! *wrong*

This isn't to say that player skepticism is never right. As clearly Blizzard feels there is one situation for which there needs to be a SW / Ogri portal in Shatt and Dal. And you could like wise make a list of thing where players have been right. But over all, of course, players are not mass quitting nor has WoW suffered an unrecoverable mortal wound from these gave injustices. Rather, instead, player base has only expanded.

Never fear, though! All good things have an end, even WoW. So there will be a point at which you can crow about the actual literal *death* OF WOW!
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85 Night Elf Mage
3160
@ Bashiok

7 raids for a tier is not good enough. You said in your first post that it's because it shouldn't take 4 nights to clear. I log on to raid. do you expect me to log on to raid one night a week once my guild has everything on farm?

Oh I get it. Keep me playing that minimal amount of content, and the legendary, for minimal effort. Do you really think we'd stick around for the daily quests? <shudder> Daily quests are horrible and boring.

Let's look at it this way. People log on for one night to clear the raid (don't say it's not possible, my guild is perfectly capable of downing 7 bosses in a night once it's on farm), and the rest of the week to raid. Ya that's gonna be entertaining. The only thing that might keep me there is the legendary.

Now, I do realize how much work it must've taken you guys to make the new zones, new quests, and the raid. But quite honestly, you could've just scrapped 4.1 content. 2 dungeons blizzard? That's it for 4.1? You said you wanted to move away from the major patches and give them to use in smaller doses but more frequently. Well make it more frequent.

How do you expect use to be stasfied raid for the one night then doing daily's and farming for the rest of the week? Okay, so I don't have to do them. What am I gonna do for the rest of the week? Roll an alt? lol.

So I'll be paying $15/month to raid one night a week to put it simply. lol, when you think of it that way it seems pretty stupid to keep paying blizzard.

So tell me blizzard, where is the subscription money we're giving you to support you because we love THIS game? Diablo 3? Star Craft 2 expansion? Starcraft Phoenix? Titan? I want you working on this game because this is the game I play on a daily basis that I've loved since the day I opened the box. Move your money to wow Blizzard. It is your biggest cash cow. Make the players happy and keep the money flowing.
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85 Night Elf Mage
3160
Oh I get it blizzard. You expect everyone to stay subscribed because it's Ragnaros

I'm sure that'll keep players playing after 5 months
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85 Orc Hunter
5640
04/28/2011 10:38 PMPosted by Bashiok
True, except it's just one more boss, not two. :( There are only 6 in Firelands, the 7th boss is the new BH boss.


Incorrect. 6 + Rag.
Well at least I know when I'll be quitting.

Firelands to next raid is easily going to be another 6-8 months.
I'm not paying through that crap while most of the devs are working on Titan.
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85 Draenei Paladin
0
I think it's enough! I was excited the day that the : Looking For Group: Channel was released.
*shrugs* Just saying.
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90 Human Paladin
9475
04/29/2011 07:06 AMPosted by Manwê
So tell me blizzard, where is the subscription money we're giving you to support you because we love THIS game? Diablo 3? Star Craft 2 expansion? Starcraft Phoenix? Titan? I want you working on this game because this is the game I play on a daily basis that I've loved since the day I opened the box. Move your money to wow Blizzard. It is your biggest cash cow. Make the players happy and keep the money flowing.


Out of curiosity, is WoW the only game you play?
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85 Draenei Shaman
3715
04/29/2011 07:15 AMPosted by Kurnea
Out of curiosity, is WoW the only game you play?


For many raiders not at the casual end of the spectrum, it very likely is. Raiding is extremely different from other forms of gaming, and fills a different roll in life. It is more akin to an intermural sports team or a bowling league, than anything.
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85 Human Warlock
4450
I don't have a problem with the number of bosses being 7. Some of the longer raids became really...long. A longer raid now and then would be nice too...especially with skippable bosses. I also like short raids, and one boss raids; while I disliked a lot of the LK raids, Sartherion might be my favorite raid ever.




I don't generally like hard modes. Doing the same boss at a harder difficulty, even if it's a bit different just isn't terribly rewarding. And while you might think you're giving us more content, how many people actually complete hard modes? My guild has so little interest in hardmodes we basically stopped raiding...if they weren't in the game, or there was just one or two we might have kept farming and progressing, but it's a whole meta-teir we're frustrated with and ignoring.

Don't get me wrong; I love that there's often some content I won't complete, it gives me something to aspire for, but hard modes for every fight that are just more tightly tuned, or have one more mechanic are not that fun or interesting. Again, I loved Sartherion and his hard mode, but I don't want to see hard-mode on every boss, and perhaps 1 or 2 a tier is 'enough'.



Regarding the discussion in the couple of posts above: wow is basically the only game I play. I have cancelled my subscription 2 or 3 times when I've been unhappy with raid content (ulduar hard modes, and ICC after the first few weeks). When I leave WoW I don't even consider other Blizzard games (Final Fantasy, Eve Online, Sim games have been my replacements). If I'm unhappy with this game I'm not moving to another Bliz product. Satisfy me with THIS game or lose my dollars.
Edited by Simaril on 4/29/2011 7:26 AM PDT
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85 Draenei Shaman
3715
I don't generally like hard modes. Doing the same boss at a harder difficulty, even if it's a bit different just isn't terribly rewarding. And while you might think you're giving us more content, how many people actually complete hard modes? My guild has so little interest in hardmodes we basically stopped raiding...if they weren't in the game, or there was just one or two we might have kept farming and progressing, but it's a whole meta-teir we're frustrated with and ignoring.


Hard modes exist because they are an easy and functional compromise to let both highly skilled players and lesser skilled players both experience raiding with a minimum of effort of extra development work, and a minimum amount of complaint from the lesser skilled players that they are not 'seeing' all the content. It is very unlikely that concept will go away.
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