That it?

85 Human Paladin
8635
so yeah, that pretty much confirms what I thought which is that VP and normals will give 378 gear and we'll "have" to grind heroics for VP again. Then we only get the one small raid to hold us over for many months. It's ToC all over again. Boring heroic farming. A nice, but not great daily quest hub (I consider the AQ gates and the Isle to be great quest hubs because the server did them together. I know blizzard hates that idea now because apparently "you had to be there" isn't fair to people who weren't there. They're here now though, right? Why does everything have to be so single player? Where's the sense of community?! Sorry, off-topic tangent). And one tiny raid (probably good, but tiny in Firelands' case) that obliterates the expansive raid content that came before it.

le sigh...
Edited by Popsecret on 4/29/2011 1:59 PM PDT
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85 Troll Warrior
10055
04/29/2011 11:53 AMPosted by Pugmaster
you obviously did not play burning crusade... we had kara, ssc, tempest keep and magtheridon. there wasn't a patch at all, content or otherwise, for more than half a year because frankly people didn't even get TO ssc or tempest keep as a guild for a long long time. so they may as well not have even existed.



actually black temple came out in 2.1 about 4 months after bc released. 3 tiers within 6 months of release. now thats an expansion.


But then there was 13 months of no new raiding content except for a 10 man that dropped sub par loot.
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61 Goblin Warrior
490
I am very disappointed with the T12 raids. Only 7 bosses to do. This is the smallest raiding tier in WoW's history, why can't it be slightly bigger (e.g. 14 bosses like Ulduar, IMO one of the best raids), or Blizzard add another raid into the mix?

I don't particularly want a return to ToC with only a few bosses for a whole tier. And it will be months before the next tier comes out after 4.2, and how big is that going to be? Another 7 bosses for 5 months? Give me a break.
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Yeah....in Wrath, 3.1 introduces Ulduar, one of the best raids in recent memory. Before that we had Naxx (also one of the best, even If I am pissed it was reused), Sarth, Maly VoA

4.1....we get reused (Zul'Aman is virtually identical to old ZA...Dakaara is a cheap ripoff of Zul'jin) ZA/ZG

The raid scene has kind of been lackluster in Cata
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It's bad enough we had to pay full price for an expansion that only had 5 levels
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85 Dwarf Paladin
9830
7 bosses per tier is okay with me if the tiers could overlap more in the future, but that requires three things: fast content cycles, small gear gaps and a proper difficulty curve. The biggest reason Trial of the Crusader was a failure was that people liked it less than Ulduar which was made completely obsolete. If it weren't for the fact that any half-braindead pickup raid could acquire significantly better loot than the hardmodes in Ulduar, people would have been happy to continue working on progression there at least somewhat in parallel.

Adjusting ilvls won't work, because it screws up normal/heroic tuning levels. Releasing content before people are finished with the current tier won't work because it screws up the current tier's balance to be able to go from T11 normals -> T12 normals -> T11 heroics while the content is still fresh. Difficulty curving is the only way to make this work. In practice, and especially in the absence of 25N gear bridging the 10N-10H gap as in WotLK, the current presumed progression path where normal mode raiders move on to the next normal mode raids without doing heroic content... just doesn't make sense anymore.

This doesn't work:
T11N -> T12N -> T13N -> T14N
...because it presents no challenge to heroic raiders in normal modes once the first tier is done with. And it's not consistent, because we're expected to complete HEROIC dungeons for the gear to raid in the first place.

Instead, we want two options. One for the people that keep up with the release curve, and one for those who are behind the curve (either progressing slowly, or starting late). For the latter group, it works like TBC where there existed higher tiers of content in-game already, but you didn't go there because you knew you weren't ready for it. So, the "keeping up" cycle:
T11N -> T11H -> T12N -> T12H -> T13N -> T13H -> T14N -> T14H -> end of expansion

And the "own pace" cycle:
T11N -> T11H/T12N -> T12H/T13N -> T13H/T14N -> T14H/end of expansion


Basically, the T12N gear is on par with T11H, so it needs to be as difficult to obtain. Judging by the design of T11 content, I think this "everyone does most heroic content" assumption is already what you have in mind for Cataclysm raid difficulty. In that case, you should be concerned: the players who are expecting to see lots of accessible, shiny new content will be disappointed to find that instead of ~4 bosses trivial enough to beat while being bad, they now have 1-2 more that are even feasible to a group clearing 6/12 and not looking for a challenge.

So what's the solution to that problem then? Sadly, it's attunements in one form or another. Don't let people skip content, make them progress through it naturally. Easy normal modes break progression tiers beyond the first, artificially decrease the amount of content available to current heroic raiders (as they blaze through normals), and artificially decrease the amount of content available to current normal raiders (as they skip heroics). When we're only talking about 7 bosses, that starts to make a big difference. I'm not saying we should force everyone to hit 13/13H before they can enter Firelands, but 12/12N is reasonable and if loot is scarce enough from difficult enough bosses there, it will be worthwhile for those guilds to keep working on their T11H progression too.
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85 Night Elf Hunter
9270
remember back in BC? oft called by players as "the golden age of raiding"? yeah, those raids had about 4-9 bosses per raid.

it's fine, firelands is NOT going to be the only raid released for T12.
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I am begging you now blizzard, please do NOT rush your patches. Take your time and make it good and functioning. Please.
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90 Orc Death Knight
10435
Don't worry there's more "old new content" to come! Can you say AQ40 all over again!!
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90 Gnome Warrior
13215
Scrap the dailies crap, give us an additional raid.

Casuals got their content with 4.1, make 4.2 for the rest of us.
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