Survival PVE Guide (4.1)

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85 Troll Hunter
1895
le bump for sticky
04/25/2011 06:55 PMPosted by Zeherah
Kalilah that looks right to me (well technically 1 agil is slightly higher than .55 crit rating so I'm not sure if maybe you want to add another digit or two, say .5519 or .552), but if you're giving numbers with talents included, I would think it'd be best to also include the 2% agil from hunting party and the 5% from the mail bonus. That would cover everything unbuffed, then of course we have an extra 5% from kings.


Zeherah, appreciate you checking the numbers, I knew if anyone would know it would be you :)

I wanted to include the standard 85 Hunter stat conversions as well as what they look like for Survival with the added agility bonuses that other hunters dont get. I completely forgot about adding the 2% bonus from Hunting Party and was debating on whether or not to include the 5% bonus from mail specialization since all hunters get that bonus. However to be correct I believe I need to include those values. I am planning on not factoring in the 5% from Kings as I want this to reflect our self-buffed totals.

So new math calculations should be (Assuming the agility bonuses values are additive???):

1 agility * [(.05 Mail spec) + (.05 Into the Wilderness) + (.02 HP)] = 1 agility * .12 = 1.12 agility
1 agility = 1.12 * 2 AP = 2.24 AP
1 agility = 1.12 * .552 crit rating = .61824 Crit Rating

Anyone care to validate my napkin math?
85 Night Elf Hunter
3730
Yo Kal, your current Specs you have in place right now, is the survival spec built for raiding? and if you know a viable raiding spec for MM please tell.
04/26/2011 09:32 AMPosted by Whosthatchic
Yo Kal, your current Specs you have in place right now, is the survival spec built for raiding? and if you know a viable raiding spec for MM please tell.

You Trolling me? lol?

Ok I will bite. Yes my SV spec is for raiding. I chose the utility of Entrapment over Survival tactics. I am also currently using 2/2 Sic' EM over 3/3 One with Nature (just have one point in there).

However, Today I will probably be droping SV altogether for MM depending on how well Multi-Shot performs with its buff.

And as for MM, there is a sticky at the top of these froums:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2369739087
Ok, Finished all sections except the Shot Priority parts. Will finish Shot priorities tomorrow. then just have a little cleaning up to do and adding some navigational links.
90 Dwarf Hunter
14760

So new math calculations should be (Assuming the agility bonuses values are additive???):


Most agility bonuses are multiplicative. It's possible that some might be additive (I'll doublecheck that later today if I have time) but currently on the site I have them all being treated as multiplicative so I assume that at some point that's what my testing was indicating.
Updated most everything.

Added Morobir's great list of useful hunter links.

Just lacking AoE Shot Priority/Rotation and some pet details.

Nearly finished. Just need to add a few finishing touches.
90 Draenei Hunter
11235
I take issue with the haste thing. Once i got the 4p set bonus, I started favoring gear with haste/crit and reforged out of mastery into haste to get my cobra shot down to 1.4 seconds. This put me at the haste soft plateau, where I am firing four cobras to every one explosive, but explosive is being pushed back slightly (i.e., not being fired as soon as its off cd). I saw a large (over 1k) increase in my dps from doing this. The increase is practical, in raiding in heroics. I did not run it through FemaleDwarf or Simcraft, however, so i can't say whether or not it's mathmatically sound.
04/29/2011 08:38 AMPosted by Taeliana
I take issue with the haste thing. Once i got the 4p set bonus, I started favoring gear with haste/crit and reforged out of mastery into haste to get my cobra shot down to 1.4 seconds. This put me at the haste soft plateau, where I am firing four cobras to every one explosive, but explosive is being pushed back slightly (i.e., not being fired as soon as its off cd). I saw a large (over 1k) increase in my dps from doing this. The increase is practical, in raiding in heroics. I did not run it through FemaleDwarf or Simcraft, however, so i can't say whether or not it's mathmatically sound.


Are you the 1k dps increase you saw wasnt just from obtaining higher ilevel gear with more stats?

I would be curious to see what your character looks like in female dwarf both optimized for 1.4 cobra cast time and for 1.66 cobra cast time.
good to see it finished up, now lets hope it doesnt take 4 weeks and a repost to get stickied,

+10 internets Kal, tween this and the MM guide youve done a lot of work.


Thanks for the compliment Vaelkyri. However it wasn't just me. the numerous hunter community members who have provided insight, suggestions, corrections, etc have all been extremely valuable in getting this guide put together.

I hope this will be just as helpful as the MM guide and spark further theroycrafting discussions to help us all become better hunters and push the limits that much farther.

The guide is 99% completed and I believe ready for sticky requests. I am going to be doing just a little bit more cleaning up. I want to add some loop back links at the bottom of each post.

I also have a little bit more to add to the pet section as suggested by Zeherah/Kaya in an above post regarding when cunning pets may be potentially better to use vs ferocity pets.
90 Troll Hunter
10315
04/29/2011 08:38 AMPosted by Taeliana
I take issue with the haste thing. Once i got the 4p set bonus, I started favoring gear with haste/crit and reforged out of mastery into haste to get my cobra shot down to 1.4 seconds. This put me at the haste soft plateau, where I am firing four cobras to every one explosive, but explosive is being pushed back slightly (i.e., not being fired as soon as its off cd). I saw a large (over 1k) increase in my dps from doing this. The increase is practical, in raiding in heroics. I did not run it through FemaleDwarf or Simcraft, however, so i can't say whether or not it's mathmatically sound.
I would have to assume there is an area where the delay in firing explosive is worth it. Though I wonder what the extra stat lost to achieve it in terms of crit and mastery is worth it. Would take a lot of tinkering in FD. At 1.4 second cast you are pushing explosive back by 0.6 seconds per cycle not including latency.

Just for the sake of discussion, you would need over 27% haste from gear not including the 4pc bonus to fit a fourth cobra shot in without delaying explosive without being a golbin or having dark intent.

So, to get a 1.25s cobra shot cast time with the 4 pc bonus, pathing and HP it would work out to:

Standard: 3470 haste
Goblin: 3309
w/ Dark Intent: 2996
Goblin w/ Dark Intent: 2839
Hey Kaya,

Im struggling a little bit with describing the situations where using a cunning pet would be more beneficial over a Feroicty pet.

Care to lend a hand?

I know that Feeding Frenzy gives pets a dps bonus once the mob health drops below 35%
and that Wild Hunt requires you pet to use more focus, thus making Sic'em nearly required.

I guess I am just having writers block.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
90 Draenei Hunter
11235
04/29/2011 08:59 AMPosted by Kalilah
I take issue with the haste thing. Once i got the 4p set bonus, I started favoring gear with haste/crit and reforged out of mastery into haste to get my cobra shot down to 1.4 seconds. This put me at the haste soft plateau, where I am firing four cobras to every one explosive, but explosive is being pushed back slightly (i.e., not being fired as soon as its off cd). I saw a large (over 1k) increase in my dps from doing this. The increase is practical, in raiding in heroics. I did not run it through FemaleDwarf or Simcraft, however, so i can't say whether or not it's mathmatically sound.


Are you the 1k dps increase you saw wasnt just from obtaining higher ilevel gear with more stats?

I would be curious to see what your character looks like in female dwarf both optimized for 1.4 cobra cast time and for 1.66 cobra cast time.


I'm fairly certain it wasn't just from the gear boost, since it was only one piece of gear. But in the interest of science and the hunter community, I will run stuff through female dwarf this evening. Can't say for sure if it will be before raid time (8pm EST) or after (Midnight EST). I'm weak on theorycrafting, but I will do my best and post results.

Also, thank you for contributing these guides. Hopefully this gets stickied along with your MM guide.
90 Draenei Hunter
11235
Oh, btw, do you want me to just post the dps results or the entire breakdown? Also, anything specific you'd like me to ensure is in place when i run the calculator? I usually click the "enable best raid buffs" button, but in the reality of my ten man, we don't always have the "best" raid buffs.
90 Troll Hunter
10315
Im struggling a little bit with describing the situations where using a cunning pet would be more beneficial over a Feroicty pet.

Care to lend a hand?

I know that Feeding Frenzy gives pets a dps bonus once the mob health drops below 35%
and that Wild Hunt requires you pet to use more focus, thus making Sic'em nearly required
From what I understand, which keep in mind is all from Zeh's teachings on the subject is that the difference is very small. I think that all things being equal that owl's focus makes up a little but for the fact that we don't have access to many if any focus regen talents like MM & BM.

I would think that if, all buffs being covered, that the critical portion of the fight is the burn phase then cunning would likely be the better choice ei: Chim or council, but for fights like H Halfus for instance where using rapid fire and call of the wild for the aoe or to burn a drake quick that doesn't have a long cornered phase then using a ferocity pet would likely be the better choice.

Though you could likely make an argument for and against both for almost every fight. DPS wise, I find that using CotW and RF in a situation where I can stand still during the CA range of the fight is the best dps increase on a standard single target encounter for obvious reasons.
Edited by Kaya on 4/29/2011 10:27 AM PDT
90 Dwarf Hunter
14760
With regards to the haste plateau thing, the thing to keep in mind is that SV tends to be somewhat tight on focus, and the gap in dps per focus between explosive shot and arcane is not what it used to be. So if the delay on explosive shot isn't huge, having a 4th cobra allows for more focus regen, which allows for more of your cobras to be replaced with arcane shots, which then in turn shortens the delay.

There's some talk about a haste soft plateau on Warcraft Hunters Union:
http://www.warcrafthuntersunion.com/2011/03/sv-hunter-rotation-haste-plateaus/

Honestly I suspect the difference isn't huge either way, but once you get to 4pc T11 it's kind of hard to drop enough haste to not be at that plateau anyhow, so there's some sense in going that route.

With regards to cunning pets, they do have owl's focus, but I'd agree that if you were running one on a consistent basis sic'em (or at least one point in it) would be more important. I'd say there are 2 cases when you'd run cunning over ferocity since the changes to hawk:
1) Your raid needs a specific buff only cunning can provide (4% physical damage or 8% spell damage debuff)
2) You're doing a fight where the critical piece is at the end (such as Cho'gall or Chimaeron), thus finding much higher value in Feeding Frenzy (on a fight like this you might move the points from Careful Aim to Sic'Em anyhow)

Some more things I noticed in the guide:
- There's no discussion on whether to use explosive trap or black arrow. The gap between the dps of the two is fairly small, and explosive trap gives double the chance of LnL procs and also costs a lot less focus which frees up more focus for arcane shots and reduces the trouble of having to practically cap focus to get explosive and black arrow both off
- Based on my testing yesterday it looks like explosive trap now stacks betwen multiple hunters, so you can remove the note about that
Edited by Zeherah on 4/29/2011 10:50 AM PDT
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