Ask The Devs #6: Guild Advancement (Answers)

93 Blood Elf Paladin
6955
04/27/2011 10:20 AMPosted by Kaivax
Maintaining an active guild asks a lot of the guild master and leading officers


Since I took over my guild in august after a mass exodus ( the previous GM started an ICC guild and most ppl went with him we had 250+ members, after the mass exodus we had 90 members),I worked real hard to rebuild our ranks with good people who wanted the guild to excel. Upon hearing that Blizz was going to introduce guild leveling with bennies in cat, I spoke to many of my members and it was a greed that we would need ot lvl out guild as quickly as possible to be able to compete.

What happened after December 7, 2010 was horrible. most people in my guild took the Christmas holiday away from the game during a critical time, while other guilds levled very quickly. After the holidays another horrible trend emerged. Many members seeing other guilds being much higher levels, Jumped to the higher lvl guilds to get free access to other peoples hard earned bennies instead of helping to lvl their own guild.

This in turn led to a 3rd horrible trend - Maga-Guilds - Guilds who were lucky and got a fast start at leveling and attracted more free loaders grew to epic proportions some guild have 500 to 800 members - the more members, the faster they can level and attract even more people so they can level even faster, a snowball effect.

On the one hand I wanna say good riddance t the free loaders, if they were disloyal to us they'll be disloyal to the Mega-Guilds eventually too. But on the other hand all the people who jump to the Mega-Guilds are leaving smaller (normal sized) guilds and making it much harder to level up our guild and maintain or attract new people, is reverse snow ball effect the more people who leave our guild the harder it becomes to level, and more people want to leave. People have joined, saw what our level was and /gquit in under 20 seconds... on several occasions.

Add to this the greed factor of the Mega-Guilds, 2 in particular on my server have consistently targeted and cherry picked all my top producers. like they scope our my guilds report on wow armory every week and see who the top producers are and seduce and recruit them away.

I have resorted to paying major cash prizes every Tuesday morning for the top guild exp producers in hopes of motivating ppl to try and win the prizes by doing what they normally should be doing... build up guild exp. and guild rep. This is not working, most people still don't strive for it, and those that do usually win 2 or 3 weeks in a row then get cherry picked by the Mega-Guilds.

Just like in the corporate world the bigger companies put the smaller ones out of business until they have a monopoly. At this rate blizz might as well DESTROY ALL guilds and just have 1 guild for the whole server, bc that's what's going to evolve if these trends continue.

Blizzard loves nerfing things, Blizz needs to nerf this problem by setting maximum membership limits to prevent mega guilds from forming, set diminishing guild EXP as guilds get too big, make the guild Bennies available only to members who have achieved Honored so new members still have to work to earn them and DO NOT ALLOW THEM to TAKE their Guild rep with them to a new guild that will exacerbate the problem immensly. One of the FEW reasons people who have been in a guild for a while have to stay is they'd have to start at the bottom of a new guild. When you hire in at a new company you don't start off as the CEO, well not usually, normally you start at the bottom and pay your dues.

Rather I would suggest adding new guild rep bars to the list of factions, just like blizz adds new factions with every new drop listed under classic, BC, LK, Cat, Horde, ect,, they can add a section for guilds and add your new guilds under that section, so you can leave a new guild and come back to yer old one and still have the rep you built... Or have it like opposing factions where adding positive rep to one causes negative rep to the other. If you had a lot of rep with yer old guild, you start of very unfriendly or even hated with the new guild and have a lot of work to do to earn their trust become friendly with them, meanwhile yer rep with yer old guild is fading.

This is my perspective as a guild manager trying to keep a once great guild alive against all odds. I hope Blizz will think seriously about these concerns and address them in upcoming patches.

Elven Justice -
*Paladins Are Gods Executioners, We Kick the Doors, Serve the warrants, Arrest the suspects, Judge the guilty and Execute the condemned - We Bring the Justice!
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93 Blood Elf Paladin
6955
Also, Why can't we (at least as GM) be able to see a players guild rep?

People get on, do whatever all day and show 0 guild exp!
People who have been in the guild a long time and have very low guild rep are obviously not trying to help the guild and need to be fired for poor work performance

On that note the guild info should have a column listing each players starting date. I have to keep a database on the side for info blizz don't show so I can figure out who "unknown" is when they leave the guild.

On the guild interface, instead of having separate tabs for guild status, player status, weekly and total guild exp production - make the interface wider and have all them columns on one page so I can get a complete picture of a player, lvl location, rank, last on, and production info with out having to flip through 3 pages for each toon.
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91 Blood Elf Mage
13250
Also, Why can't we (at least as GM) be able to see a players guild rep?

...

On the guild interface, instead of having separate tabs for guild status, player status, weekly and total guild exp production - make the interface wider and have all them columns on one page so I can get a complete picture of a player, lvl location, rank, last on, and production info with out having to flip through 3 pages for each toon.


Some interesting thoughts there.

Those would have been good while the topic was still open, wish I had asked them.

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90 Gnome Warlock
1740
04/27/2011 10:38 AMPosted by Reiterei
I just left a level 19 guild because the leader and all the officers joined a "better" guild on another server and havent been on in a month. We would beg everyday on Vent for him to come back and hand over leadership of the guild. But alas, he refuses to while his char remains at "Last online: Over 1 month" and the guild has slowly died.


Just an FYI, if a guild leader isn't on for 30+ days a GM ticket can get the leadership passed to another active character within the guild.
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85 Worgen Hunter
2210
Q: Why isn't guild XP from quests a factor of character level, quest difficulty, and intended quest level, instead of being derived directly from XP gained? Why is guild reputation so hard to gain before level 70? It feels as though it's harder to gain reputation with your guild at the beginning and easier as you gain levels; shouldn't it be the other way around? – Atun [North America], Threshold [Europe, English], Helíana [Latin America]

A: The experience gained from a quest is directly related to all of these factors, which is why we use it as a basis to reward guild experience. Clearly this value is much smaller at lower levels and we know that this does not feel great with the current tuning. We're going to tune the XP multiplier for doing lower level quests so it doesn't feel like such a waste. Guild reputation suffers from this same multiplier issue too, and when we tune the experience the rep gain will be improved as well. Rep gain will also be much improved though in patch 4.1 with the introduction of the new guild tabards, and increased values on clearing dungeons, raids and winning arenas and battlegrounds.


I'm just annoyed that I can level a toon from 1 - 85 in the same guild and not even break neutral with them.

I mean, why can't the character that goes form 1 - 85 in the same guild be at least half way through honored by the time they hit 85, or even revered? The amount of rep awarded to low level characters is borderline absurd, it takes me 40 levels at best to get exalted with a neutral faction, yet 85 levels of loyalty are not enough for my low level alt to get a good standing with my guild?

It is also sad that making a guild form scratch with only low level players to level together provides no benefit. The guild should at least level along with the members so if they all hit 85 as a cohesive guild their efforts should be rewarded with a level 10 or 12 guild. it's like all the questing, dungeon running, farming and crafting they did on their way to 85 was pointless for themselves.


How the heck are you not breaking neutral. I started in the guild im in now around 60 and im friendly.
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85 Human Warlock
4145
My take on Guild Advancement is that overall its a great concept that has been implemented in a reasonably effective way. I love the new BoA guild tabards and the Guild Challenges because they are quick and easy ways to address two serious problems: Slow advancement of lower level alts and slow guild leveling for small guilds.

The Challenges are doable even for a tiny guild - you only need 3 guildies to do a guild dungeon or battleground run and 8 to run a guild raid. Even the smallest 10 man guild should be able to do the dungeons at least! You can complete the Challenges in a single day or take all week to do them... its a great way to even the field for guilds of all sizes.

The tabards allow alts a faster way of gaining guild rep while still requiring them to be active with their guild. I am an alt-o-holic... I have 9 Alliance alts on Cenarius and 7 on Arathor - and I am leveling each and every one of them. I don't spend every moment doing guild dungeon runs with my alts yet they still manage to make reasonable progress with guild rep. I leveled my main on Arathor (this lock) from 1 to 85 in the Resistance guild after Cata was released - and she was at least Honored with the guild by the time she hit 85. Multiple dungeon runs and a few raids led me to hit Exalted with the guild about 2 months after I hit 85. Not bad progress in my opinion.

The new Looking for Guild feature allows people to find the guild that is right for them. I used it just the other night after I created a new toon on a friend's home realm. She is my first toon on that realm so at level 5 I went looking for a guild. After browsing through the available guilds, I chose to submit a request to a level 21 guild not because of its level but because of its description matched what I look for in a guild. If it doesn't work out, so be it... I'll switch to another guild. In one way, the small guild rep gains for a low level toon is a good thing. It gives you time to really know if a guild is the right fit before you risk losing tons of guild rep by switching.
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96 Blood Elf Priest
13420
Total disclosure: I'm the gm of a small mostly social guild that suffered pain at the hands of the new guild perq system. From this perspective it was easy to see what could (dare I say should?) have been done at implementation to prevent this problem. Existing guilds should have been grandfathered into the system at higher level, based on either size or time in service, or some combination of these factors, while existing members grandfathered in at higher guild reputation. This would have instantly provided an incentive to remain with the current guild and help it grow rather than run off to a larger one. Obviously it's too late to fix this mess now, the damage is done, but might you please consider such options in the future before you re-engineer existing game cultures? (FYI, the members who stayed have been loyal and very active. Our per-capita guild experience gain may be the best in our realm, but under the current system it's sheer numbers that win.)
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14 Night Elf Hunter
130
There we go again. The system as it is set up benefits larger active guilds. That's a fact. Another fact is that lvling players get barely any rep and therefore do not contribute to guild xp. People looking for a guild will for the most part look at the guild lvl. People in a guild need to play their 80-85 to earn guild xp. Forget your low lvl toons which are more fun to play right now.

These are facts. You can try to dispute them but it will not change the fact.

Solutions: Any lvl player gets the same rep for the same tasks accomplished .
Perks are based on player rep (especially the ones that benefit the player more then the guild). Should work if you do step 1. Rep probably should be set up in steps 1-25 as an example and can later be extended.
Guild xp ...either get rid of it or give it rewards that benefit the guild more then the individual.

This way everybody has to work for personal rep (perks) and has the same rewards no matter what guild they are in. But Blizz says the system is working as intended which leads me to belief they intend to get rid of low member guilds. Otherwise they would look either into options to set it up different or scratch it.
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14335
I have to admit, I was pretty disheartened by these answers. Basically the only thing explained here is that the developers are completely oblivious to the problems they created.
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85 Blood Elf Hunter
6350
to the people complaining about small guilds getting the shaft. capping guild experience is easy even for a small guild, i am the leader of a small guild and we are level 17. yeah we are not 25 already, but who cares? we will get there eventually. if you just have 15 people in your guild who max their experience everyday you will cap the guild experience everyday. I think what you guys are complaining about is Inactive guilds. and if you in an inactive guild, you should probably leave if its an issue. and search for an ACTIVE guild. because obviously the other people in the guild don't care about the perks as much as you do.
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"We were careful to only choose perks that didn't contribute to player power"
Almost all of the perks do exactly that. +Mount speed, +XP, +rep, +honor, +JP - all amazingly powerful perks for individuals.

"We're going to tune the XP multiplier for doing lower level quests so it doesn't feel like such a waste."
That would be awesome.


"Player power" means their effectiveness in combat, dps, heals, or ability to take damage. Mount speed only matters for pvp and it isn't in effect when doing pvp, and honor/jp/rep are not directly related to player power.

Maybe instead of changing the guild xp gained from low level quests, a BOA tabard could be used to make all guild xp gains as strong as those at about 80.
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100 Draenei Death Knight
10025
Q: Are you planning to address the issue of Guild Leaders mass kicking members, once the guild reaches level 25? – Bloodbliss [North America], Юхани [Europe, Russian] A: We don't really have any interest in controlling who a guild leader chooses to kick, or when. Guilds are fairly transparent and simple player-run groups, and we have to be extremely careful about what systems we implement that impact how people can operate their guilds. We could absolutely make it more difficult for guild leaders to kick their members, and that might help very slightly with these situations, but the result would actually be that guild leaders would just be much less likely to invite new members. We want people to be in guilds, as opposed to making guild masters afraid that if they invite someone they may never be able to kick them if they don't work out.Allowing players to keep some level of guild reputation is an option we can look into to help with this situation, though.


I do not completely agree. I FEEL that when a player is kicked from his/her guild that perhaps they should be entitled to that particular Guild rewards for an arbitrary amount of time...say 7 "real" days as opposed to automatic shut-off of said rewards. I understand some people get kicked because they are not good/moral people or don't know how to play their class etc...I am addressing the issue of "Mass Kicking Members". Because it is one thing for a Guild Leader to have power of his/her Guild but it is also another thing when that "malicious" Guild Leader mass kicks their members once they "get what they want" i.e. a certain Guild LvL. The Guild Leaders out there may not like this idea...but in all fairness I votye for the masses and not the dictator.

So in summary I feel a player should be entitled to a "window" of opportunity where they can purchase Guild rewards from their guild but the time frame must be reasonable such as "7 real days..not game time days" in which they can purchase their rewards.

Thoughts?

PS: Joining another Guild automatically wipes out the "window of opportunity" to those said rewards.
Edited by Deathskeeper on 5/2/2011 2:18 PM PDT
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90 Human Priest
8545
Is there any thoughts to adding a feature that tracks players guild movements what guilds they have been in since the player was created. Might be helpful to see if there guild hoppers or serious prospects for someone looking for a home,

Speaking of Guild Master control will there be changes in the future to give more the one person GM abilities, right now were dealing with the issue of the recruitment function only the GM can see it and if there are players that want to join the guild and have multiple prospects to other good guilds we may miss the opportunity to invite a qaulity player if lets say the GM is called out of town suddenly and cant transfer GM to another player in his absence?
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98 Dwarf Warrior
7535
as far as guild homes...i think that would be a great idea, have someplace that is phased that a guild leader could set up (ie having a list of buildings to construct, vendors to place,guild daily quest givers to place) it would be a throw back to the old warcraft days. you could require certain mats to be obtained for buildings or quests to be completed by a majority of members to be able to place them or gold to be spent to purchase them. of course u could set it up so that guild lvl's determine what u can and cannot place, the higher the lvl guild the more options u have. it would be a great place for a GL to set up guild events like scavenger hunts and races. besides with the creativity of the blizz staff u guys could come up with all kinds of amazing items, structures, statues, and templates to give players that it would be interesting to see how those players choose to utilize them. it would be something like the guilds own personal town or city to create from the ground up...

any word on your thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated ty...
Signed,
The íronskùll
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85 Night Elf Priest
3920
"If the guild perks and rewards aren't interesting, then there is no motivation to join a guild or work to improve your guild."
Except all the other reasons everyone has always joined guilds. In my experience, far more people were guilded than not even before guild perks.

"We were careful to only choose perks that didn't contribute to player power"
Almost all of the perks do exactly that. +Mount speed, +XP, +rep, +honor, +JP - all amazingly powerful perks for individuals.

"The perks are nice, no doubt, but you're going to have less fun in an established guild of jerks than you would starting your own guild with fewer perks."
Well, no. This isn't turning out to be true at all, especially since you cannot access these perks without tons and tons of people in a guild. It would take a small guild years - at best - to get some of these powerful perks, even with the new guild challenges.

"joining a guild at random will likely end in tears"
Indeed. And lots of QQ. But also with powerful perks.



"We're going to tune the XP multiplier for doing lower level quests so it doesn't feel like such a waste."
That would be awesome.



Props to Arabeth for some brave comments there.

I couldn't disagree more on this with the dev. Placing this many ties with guilds and/or social play takes away from the placement of motivation to play in general. If I want to be social, I'll go out with real friends. MMORPG or not its still a video game and world of warcraft no matter how much they tamper with this cannot change that bare and plain fact. You cannot alter the basis of video games with alterations to a MMORPG. That power belongs to players. NOT developers. The more power you give to players to play how and when they wish, the more players will want to play. Guilds can only limit these things.

No game developer should carry an attitude of how social players should be. Thats like deciding how social a person should be. That goes too far beyond the depth of a video game. Stick to the game and care about the players. It would serve everyone better. Players are not playing a game to show faith to developers. It is and always will be about the fun and excitement of gaming. The simple progress of the game being shackled to a guild or group is a shortcoming of a game. Not a perk. If you can't let loose on a game as one player then what is a guild but a tool for communistic rule against a single player.
Edited by Aureul on 5/3/2011 4:32 AM PDT
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27 Human Hunter
250
Q: Are we going to see guild houses someday so we could finally get a special gather place for the guild, to meet and interact easily? – Ellidryl[Europe, French], Греланд[Europe, Russian], Ledieri [Europe, Spanish], Bodywreckér [North America]

A: Guild housing is something we have discussed many times. It would be neat to have a place for people to hang out, but every time it has come up as a possibility we don't think that is worth the amount of time and resources it would take to implement (and do it right). This is one of those features where if we ever decided to do it, the benefit would have to outweigh other content we could be working on. Also, we don't feel that we need any new ways for players to hide themselves away. If possible we at least like people to be hanging around in the cities, if not out in the world. We know that many guilds, despite lack of official guild housing, have designated meeting locations throughout the world, which we think is really cool. If you don't have one yet it might be something to explore.



So, that's what you think, but do you even give a damn about what we think?


No they don't (Isn't that obvious by now?)
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27 Human Hunter
250
Props to Arabeth for some brave comments there.

I couldn't disagree more on this with the dev. Placing this many ties with guilds and/or social play takes away from the placement of motivation to play in general. If I want to be social, I'll go out with real friends. MMORPG or not its still a video game and world of warcraft no matter how much they tamper with this cannot change that bare and plain fact. You cannot alter the basis of video games with alterations to a MMORPG. That power belongs to players. NOT developers. The more power you give to players to play how and when they wish, the more players will want to play. Guilds can only limit these things.

No game developer should carry an attitude of how social players should be. Thats like deciding how social a person should be. That goes too far beyond the depth of a video game. Stick to the game and care about the players. It would serve everyone better. Players are not playing a game to show faith to developers. It is and always will be about the fun and excitement of gaming. The simple progress of the game being shackled to a guild or group is a shortcoming of a game. Not a perk. If you can't let loose on a game as one player then what is a guild but a tool for communistic rule against a single player.


AMEN BRUTHA!!!!!!!
Unfortunately, I can only press the Like button on your comment once, I swear if I was allowed more, I would
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85 Orc Rogue
5690
04/27/2011 12:06 PMPosted by Oakshado
How does +xp help an 85? How does +rep help someone already exalted with cataclysm reps? How does +honor help someone with full honor gear? How does +JP help someone with 346+ gear?
Wow. Do you honestly believe most WoW players have nothing but toons that are leve 85, exalted with all Cata factions, equipped with full suits of 346+ gear for both specs?

Anyone who has even one toon working on any of that stuff has a distinct incentive to join a huge guild. If that's by design because Blizz would rather deal with a handful of giant guilds per server than hundreds of smaller friends/family guilds, that's fine. But if that's the case, they should open up and say that rather than claiming to encourage all kinds while stacking the deck strongly against smaller guilds. My own brother even left the RL friends and family guild we started just so he could get the HUGE perks of a level 25 guild (and he was a level 85 with heavy raid gear already).
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Yeah that answer was nice and everything but I thought maybe I would decide for myself what and how I was gonna focus on with my guild NOT BLIZZARD
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