Ask The Devs #6: Guild Advancement (Answers)

There is something seriously wrong with your computation. It takes around 16,500k xp to get from level 1 to level2. If each of your 4 members do a dungeon or two together every week and then do some dailies, they should each have no trouble hitting their weekly guild contribution cap. If you all hit your cap each week, you'd get to Level 2 in 3 or 4 weeks, not 3 or 4 years. I'm assuming here you're all level 80+. If on the other hand, your guild is made up of low levels, you might well be a at a virtual stand still until you all start getting up above level 70.

We all started at level 1. "Virtual" is an unnecessary adjective to "standstill". :)

But fair enough: "4 or 5 years" is probably a stretch, considering we will get to max level eventually and then start contributing more. "1 to 2 years" may be more accurate.
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04/27/2011 11:51 AMPosted by Kalorian
I have seen people level guilds from Level 1 to 2 completely on their own in just a couple of months, so no, it won't take you years to get to level 2.

I also don't think we play as often as that person must.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
5650
Q: Are we going to see guild houses someday so we could finally get a special gather place for the guild, to meet and interact easily? – Ellidryl[Europe, French], Греланд[Europe, Russian], Ledieri [Europe, Spanish], Bodywreckér [North America]

A: Guild housing is something we have discussed many times. It would be neat to have a place for people to hang out, but every time it has come up as a possibility we don't think that is worth the amount of time and resources it would take to implement (and do it right). This is one of those features where if we ever decided to do it, the benefit would have to outweigh other content we could be working on. Also, we don't feel that we need any new ways for players to hide themselves away. If possible we at least like people to be hanging around in the cities, if not out in the world. We know that many guilds, despite lack of official guild housing, have designated meeting locations throughout the world, which we think is really cool. If you don't have one yet it might be something to explore.



So, that's what you think, but do you even give a damn about what we think?
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85 Orc Warrior
7005
Q: Why isn't guild XP from quests a factor of character level, quest difficulty, and intended quest level, instead of being derived directly from XP gained? Why is guild reputation so hard to gain before level 70? It feels as though it's harder to gain reputation with your guild at the beginning and easier as you gain levels; shouldn't it be the other way around? – Atun [North America], Threshold [Europe, English], Helíana [Latin America]

A: The experience gained from a quest is directly related to all of these factors, which is why we use it as a basis to reward guild experience. Clearly this value is much smaller at lower levels and we know that this does not feel great with the current tuning. We're going to tune the XP multiplier for doing lower level quests so it doesn't feel like such a waste. Guild reputation suffers from this same multiplier issue too, and when we tune the experience the rep gain will be improved as well. Rep gain will also be much improved though in patch 4.1 with the introduction of the new guild tabards, and increased values on clearing dungeons, raids and winning arenas and battlegrounds.


I'm just annoyed that I can level a toon from 1 - 85 in the same guild and not even break neutral with them.

I mean, why can't the character that goes form 1 - 85 in the same guild be at least half way through honored by the time they hit 85, or even revered? The amount of rep awarded to low level characters is borderline absurd, it takes me 40 levels at best to get exalted with a neutral faction, yet 85 levels of loyalty are not enough for my low level alt to get a good standing with my guild?

It is also sad that making a guild form scratch with only low level players to level together provides no benefit. The guild should at least level along with the members so if they all hit 85 as a cohesive guild their efforts should be rewarded with a level 10 or 12 guild. it's like all the questing, dungeon running, farming and crafting they did on their way to 85 was pointless for themselves.


This is only true if you rush 1-85 in a single week (and thus hit the reputation cap). However if you stop leveling once you hit rep cap for the week, pick up the next week, repeat, you'll be honored by time you hit 85. You just have to stretch it out.
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How does +xp help an 85? How does +rep help someone already exalted with cataclysm reps? How does +honor help someone with full honor gear? How does +JP help someone with 346+ gear? The only things those help is shorten the grind, yeah, an incredible increase of player power. And +mount speed? Really? A level 3 perk? Yeah, you're right, that helps so much in dungeons and raids.

Because you're going to level all your alts without heirlooms or perks, right? These are huge perks for leveling. And I don't know how amazingly powerful you already are, but +honor, +JP, +reps - those are all great even for max-level characters. They may not be good for hard-core raiders or the top PvP people who've already blown past most of the top-level content, but that's not even close to everyone. And the +mount speed is amazing, actually, regardless of level. You still do a massive amount of traveling in this game - all the time. Holidays, especially.
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This is only true if you rush 1-85 in a single week (and thus hit the reputation cap). However if you stop leveling once you hit rep cap for the week, pick up the next week, repeat, you'll be honored by time you hit 85. You just have to stretch it out.

How are you hitting the reputation cap for a guild in a week while leveling? Low-level quests give like 1 rep each. The cap isn't the issue; the total amount of rep is the issue.
Edited by Arabeth on 4/27/2011 12:27 PM PDT
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85 Orc Warrior
7005
04/27/2011 12:25 PMPosted by Arabeth
This is only true if you rush 1-85 in a single week (and thus hit the reputation cap). However if you stop leveling once you hit rep cap for the week, pick up the next week, repeat, you'll be honored by time you hit 85. You just have to stretch it out.

How are you hitting the reputation cap for a guild in a week while leveling? Low-level quests give like 1 rep each. The cap isn't the issue; the total amount of rep is the issue.


You will go from Neutral to Friendly leveling from 1-67, and the last toon I leveled 1-70 I did in 18 hours of /played and was indeed capped. It's not that hard to fit 18 hours of played time into a single week. Plus once you hit WotLK the amount of Guild Rep per quest goes up significantly, and you'll find yourself having to stop again on your way from 70-85 (at least that's how it worked out for me).
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90 Troll Shaman
0
04/27/2011 12:24 PMPosted by Arabeth
How does +xp help an 85? How does +rep help someone already exalted with cataclysm reps? How does +honor help someone with full honor gear? How does +JP help someone with 346+ gear? The only things those help is shorten the grind, yeah, an incredible increase of player power. And +mount speed? Really? A level 3 perk? Yeah, you're right, that helps so much in dungeons and raids.

Because you're going to level all your alts without heirlooms or perks, right? These are huge perks for leveling. And I don't know how amazingly powerful you already are, but +honor, +JP, +reps - those are all great even for max-level characters. They may not be good for hard-core raiders or the top PvP people who've already blown past most of the top-level content, but that's not even close to everyone. And the +mount speed is amazing, actually, regardless of level. You still do a massive amount of traveling in this game - all the time. Holidays, especially.


They are all great perks, but they are not super powerful is the point. No perks give end game gear, make you hit harder, or heal better, or take less damage. He is right, most of them just shorten the grind time.

Edit: In short, the perks don't make your character more powerful - they shorten the amount of time it takes to make your character more powerful.
Edited by Vargun on 4/27/2011 12:50 PM PDT
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04/27/2011 12:31 PMPosted by Reiterei
70 to 85 actually all give fairly decent rep per turn in.

Fair enough; let my rephrase my question to how are you hitting the cap while leveling before level 70? But the larger point is fair, too (both rep gains and rep caps should be raised).

04/27/2011 12:42 PMPosted by Vargun
most of them just shorten the grind time.

Then we disagree about the meaning of "powerful". :)

Yes, none of the perks give you free epics or cause you to do more damage or heal better. But they give a lot of massive benefits to individuals playing the game - especially reducing grind time - which is much more valuable in my opinion. Some are clearly more guild-focused - like the cauldron and guild bank-related ones - but some are way too useful/valuable to individuals to not have.

Rather than get bogged down on what "powerful" means, I will just say that many guild perks are a very strong incentive to individual players, regardless of whether or not you have to put up with a crappy guild. I also believe Blizzard underestimated how strong of an incentive these perks truly are.
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I have seen people level guilds from Level 1 to 2 completely on their own in just a couple of months, so no, it won't take you years to get to level 2.

I also don't think we play as often as that person must.


I have a character in a family alt guild and I've leveled that guild halfway to level 2 on my own, even averaging playing said character once a week since Cata. Granted, if your guild is purely low levels, it doesn't work under the current system, but a single 85 can actually do quite a bit for a small time investment every few days.

The Tol Barad dailies alone contribute well over 100k in under an hour, and I don't mean hoping for all three sets on the mainland - just do the Peninsula quests and if you win TB whichever six quests are available there. On top of that, if you have extra time do the cooking and fishing dailies, and then either the Wildhammer/Dragonmaw or Therazane (whichever one you need rep from the most).

The one nice change in 4.1, though I haven't been able to try it myself, is the guild challenges should make low levels able to contribute. If you can get three people together to complete a dungeon as long as it is level appropriate you'll gain 300k exp (almost 2% of the value from 1->2). Even if your three characters are level 15, as long as they beat a non-gray dungeon (like say, RFC/Deadmines), the guild should get credit. Repeat so you do it seven times a week and your guild will [slowly] work it's way up.
Edited by Tokiha on 4/27/2011 12:55 PM PDT
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04/27/2011 12:51 PMPosted by Reiterei
The thing is though is that these are all perks that are extremely useful in transportation, earning gold, quick leveling, and increase the speed of earning gear. Each in their own is not game breaking in that a level 25 guild is going to be a dominate force simply because it is a 25 guild. However, if one had to chose, they'd rather have than not have.

Beat me to it.
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04/27/2011 12:54 PMPosted by Tokiha
but a single 85 can actually do quite a bit for a small time investment every few days.

That's awesome, I didn't notice that much of a difference for the big guild I'm in re: individual contributions, but that's good to know. I have a feeling once you hit guild level 10 just one person isn't going to make much of a difference anymore, however (in other words, it will slow waaaay down).

04/27/2011 12:54 PMPosted by Tokiha
(almost 2% of the value from 1->2)

That agrees with my math; and I still think that's way too slow to be meaningful. It's a wonderful step in the right direction, yes: but really, 50+ dungeons (max 7/wk) just to level a guild once? According to your numbers I think it would be faster to hit 85 and do dailies.
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90 Troll Shaman
0
70 to 85 actually all give fairly decent rep per turn in.

Fair enough; let my rephrase my question to how are you hitting the cap while leveling before level 70? But the larger point is fair, too (both rep gains and rep caps should be raised).

most of them just shorten the grind time.

Then we disagree about the meaning of "powerful". :)

Yes, none of the perks give you free epics or cause you to do more damage or heal better. But they give a lot of massive benefits to individuals playing the game - especially reducing grind time - which is much more valuable in my opinion. Some are clearly more guild-focused - like the cauldron and guild bank-related ones - but some are way too useful/valuable to individuals to not have.

Rather than get bogged down on what "powerful" means, I will just say that many guild perks are a very strong incentive to individual players, regardless of whether or not you have to put up with a crappy guild. I also believe Blizzard underestimated how strong of an incentive these perks truly are.


Yes the issue is on the word "powerful" I guess. The perks are huge incentives, I don't disagree, but I would say they shorten the amount of time it takes to make you more powerful, and not make you more powerful directly. Like someone else said earlier in the thread, I am sure their responses are edited by friggin lawyers. Blizzard was probably careful in their wording of "not too powerful" meaning exactly that they don't directly increase damage/healing/mitigation/end game gear/etc...aka "character power".
Edited by Vargun on 4/27/2011 1:03 PM PDT
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04/27/2011 12:52 PMPosted by Arabeth
I also believe Blizzard underestimated how strong of an incentive these perks truly are.


I think this is key. Honestly, the perks that everyone insists they need are not very powerful. 10% extra honor means that it takes you 10 battlegrounds to get that piece of gear instead of 11. Really not a material difference. Patch 4.1 could have a bug where this bonus is not actually being applied, and you would not notice. Same with rep, JP, and XP, if they didn't all have predictable numbers fly around on your screen all the time. Yet these are the perks everyone seems to consider mandatory, and I think that impact is exactly what blizzard underestimated.

In my mind, hasty hearth and to a lesser extent mount speed would be the hardest perks to live without. Yet these take a back seat in this discussion for some reason.
Edited by Bogoran on 4/27/2011 1:12 PM PDT
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78 Blood Elf Death Knight
660
04/27/2011 12:35 PMPosted by Pukka

How are you hitting the reputation cap for a guild in a week while leveling? Low-level quests give like 1 rep each. The cap isn't the issue; the total amount of rep is the issue.


You will go from Neutral to Friendly leveling from 1-67, and the last toon I leveled 1-70 I did in 18 hours of /played and was indeed capped. It's not that hard to fit 18 hours of played time into a single week. Plus once you hit WotLK the amount of Guild Rep per quest goes up significantly, and you'll find yourself having to stop again on your way from 70-85 (at least that's how it worked out for me).


Yep.

My warrior alt hit honored before I even hit 85. I bought the guild BoA items and now she is only used for gathering.
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