Ask The Devs #6: Guild Advancement (Answers)

04/27/2011 03:43 PMPosted by Faizaniel
In real life, would you give up your preferred social circle for a 10% raise in salary?

In my real life, there's more than a few people who have moved to bigger cities for the better education and employment opportunities.

I like my vanity guild, but I'm missing out on a lot of perks and rewards by staying in it instead of joining a rank 25 guild, and some of those are significant.


Absolutely, but that's kind of outside the scope of this particular analogy. In wow you aren't gaining experience or education, you're just getting around 10% more stuff (or the same stuff 10% faster). In fact, I think social relationships in the game that you would give up for perks are more akin to the education and opportunities you bring up than the perks themselves are.

And the fact that even though the perks are significant you don't find them to be worth changing the vanity tag above your head supports my argument that the perks are not overly powerful or mandatory.
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15 Night Elf Hunter
100
I've got to say some things, and yes, I have to say them on a level 15 alt, because they're... well... inflammatory. And they've already been said.... but the QQ motivates me.

1st if your GL doesn't play for a month, you can submit a ticket and Blizz WILL (IE in my personal experience I had to do this once) change you to GL. No worries about a GL moving to another server and unreasonably not wanting anyone else to lead.

2nd

04/27/2011 03:43 PMPosted by Faizaniel
In real life, would you give up your preferred social circle for a 10% raise in salary?

In my real life, there's more than a few people who have moved to bigger cities for the better education and employment opportunities.

I like my vanity guild, but I'm missing out on a lot of perks and rewards by staying in it instead of joining a rank 25 guild, and some of those are significant.


This. If you choose to be in a small guild, there are limitations which YOU choose and should be ok with. Complaining on the forums simply means you aren't ACTUALLY happy in a small guild. General Electric will always get the better recruits over the local electronics repair place due to RESOURCES (IE: Perks). So when you're crying that small guilds don't get the same recruiting benefits and perks of a large guild, you're just stating the obvious. Before this system it was the same. Large guilds had more tanks/healers/specialty classes on at any given time, therefore greater possibility of dungeons, raids, pvp teams... the perks were already huge. Now that there is an actual system for that you feel the need to complain when you didn't before. Because before that was the way the world worked and it made sense. Now? Now you can rail against the man, and say the system's broken. But really, HONESTLY it's not. A working capitalist economy? Larger rewards for the more active players? "Favoring" those that amass large groups of people behind their banner? This isn't a Marxist system of perfect equality. It's very much a feudal system with capitalist leanings. Which means it's not equality of position, but equality of opportunity. If you made an informed decision to go with the smaller guild, own it and be proud of it. It makes you unique and strong-willed, and willing to go without for happiness. If you picked a larger guild for perks, own that and be proud. It makes you a shark who will succeed at all costs. Neither is better or worse than the other. And neither should get special consideration. Big guilds get perks faster and easier. Small guilds do not. It's the way the world (Of Warcraft) works. Just deal with it.
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60 Night Elf Druid
4150
OMG!!!! why does Blizz answer st00pid questions instead of the ones people really care about11!!11-

Oh, that's right, there weren't a whole lot of interesting questions last week.
Edited by Lorinall on 4/27/2011 5:09 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Mage
15070
04/27/2011 10:20 AMPosted by Kaivax
Allowing players to keep some level of guild reputation is an option we can look into to help with this situation, though.


Any idea of when things like this will happen, or guild mergers?
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100 Blood Elf Mage
15070

I think what blizzard wants is 3-4 massive guilds on each server on each side....


No, the time to reach the cap is still, at slow progression, around a few more months. Worth working your way with your guild.
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15 Night Elf Hunter
100
I am 100% OK with an 'Overhead' system except for this. It IS a game, so implementing an overly complicated system to maintain what you have already earned could very easily take the fun out of it an make it more like a job, especially for leaders (not just officers and GL's, but anyone with a vested interest in the guild). Also, you would need a system for 'guaranteed' revenue (much like many large corporations can work on the assumption that their staple product WILL generate X revenue, allowing them to allocate Y resources to overhead and reasonably expect not to operate at a loss when they invest Z amount into R&D, new products, employee benefits (IE Perks), etc) but I'm spending too much time on the challenges, and not enough on the fact that your suggestion is a reasonable one, and I want to emphasize that again before I make my next statement.
Being that it's a game, and the producer of said game is the 'King', they have set the system up in the way it is set up for many factors. In this case, I think they believe that less regulation, interference and/or 'taxes' (weekly guild fees) is more likely to promote movement within their economic/social system. Fees like you suggest promote gold as the primary currency and encourage players to stop at nothing to aquire it for themselves or their guild so they don't have to worry about paying the 'bills'.
The primary currency in this game isn't gold. In ANY game, it's fun and entertainment value, so I think they have set it up to maximize fun, without putting amazingly undue stress on gold (or even guild xp, as an example of another currency) But a modified version of your solution might be this:
Once a guild reaches max level, they use guild xp as the 'fuel' for their perks. A minimum amount of guild activity must occur or they lose a level. Again, this would add the same 'job' function, but if it's sufficiently low it shouldn't be an undue burden, and it's based on activities that are (Hopefully) fun. But then we get into the vanilla PVP titles issues, and we all saw how that worked before, LOL.
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15 Night Elf Hunter
100
04/27/2011 05:03 PMPosted by Reiterei
This. If you choose to be in a small guild, there are limitations which YOU choose and should be ok with. Complaining on the forums simply means you aren't ACTUALLY happy in a small guild. General Electric will always get the better recruits over the local electronics repair place due to RESOURCES (IE: Perks). So when you're crying that small guilds don't get the same recruiting benefits and perks of a large guild, you're just stating the obvious.


Then how about this:

Large guilds will by shear numbers have increased income via the gold through perks and now challenges once at cap.

Perks in real life come from large numbers of people with significant profit allowing profit to be redirected to perks.

Thus perks should come out of the profit of a guild and be deducted at a per perk per week charge straight from the guild bank. Insufficient funds = no perks. Small guilds can chose if they wish to spend their smaller money bags on what they want and see as a good perk for their guild. Larger guilds will be able to pay for more perks.

If you don't like that idea then don't compare guilds to real life as defense of why larger guilds should automatically get perks. Because in the end it doesn't work like that cause some guilds once they hit 25, kick everyone out except for the leader and his 5 friends and RETAIN those perks. Thus with paying per perk per week, a higher guild will have to retain its membership base to keep the perks period.


And I meant to quote your post Rei. My fail quoting is fail ;)
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83 Gnome Mage
7610
I've got to say some things, and yes, I have to say them on a level 15 alt, because they're... well... inflammatory. And they've already been said.... but the QQ motivates me.

(Snip out a bunch of good stuff)

Big guilds get perks faster and easier. Small guilds do not. It's the way the world (Of Warcraft) works. Just deal with it.


You sir, are my hero. Thank you for saying everything I have been thinking since this thread started.
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15 Night Elf Hunter
100
04/27/2011 05:49 PMPosted by Grimmloch


Lol, ya I was wondering at first to whom your comment was directed but caught on. And I totally agree, perks should "cost" certain amounts of experience to maintain, I think that would help ALOT of this mass leveling and mass kicking to benefit the few. It really wouldn't hurt anyone who does it right and helps with continued guild growth.

I'm fine with guilds being directed from the top up. I'm ok with giving the GL the power to invite, promote, kick and disband a guild. I understand the work that goes into it having been a previous "guild" leader, co-leader and officer in several groups of FFXI online. What I'm NOT ok with is how Blizzard treats a guild leader like a god in this game. GLs have no fault, gets the benefit of the doubt, full ownership of all in the bank, etc. You know I could be a GL. All my friends and guildies have the same experience and know how to be a GL. But to be in a guild together we all have to surrender power to the almighty GL.

While infact the best groups a GL is simply a figure head and responsibility is shared between everyone. More often than not a guild and guild leadership quite literally is a shared experience between very core members because a single person cannot do everything nor motivate everyone to get a job done. I beg Blizz as the owner of, as they like to remind us themselves by killing any solo content, a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE ROLE PLAYING GAME, to treat a guild then as a multiplayer experience and allow for multiplayer leadership especially if you're going to give the power to ruin individual progress of a player directly into the hands of another player.

Getting kicked from a guild used to suck as you then needed to find a guild and prove yourself for gear. Now you literally lose ALOT of perks and all this is in the hands of another player and that quite frankly does not seem right.


That's not a Blizzard problem to fix. You don't like G.M's like that. I don't either. I didn't stay in the guild and complain about how he has too much power. It's call Guild MASTER not Guild Leader for a reason. <strong/>


Why do people hold these "perks" to such a high standard that they would rather be miserable in a guild and have the worry about being mass kicked?

I don't see what's so hard about actually finding a guild that you enjoy being in and like the leadership. My alt (who is 85) reached Exalted the guild I was in. It took a while but I didn't even notice because I was enjoying the game. the G.M. quit and the guild died under a horrible officer.

/Gquit.

That easy. I am now honored with another guild that I like being in.

I don't see how this is Blizzards problem.


Trying to work on my Walls O' Text, quoting doesn't help much.

To respond to Rei: The only way to fix the 'GL has all the power' issue IS to put it to a vote. All members is impossible, but even a quorum of officers might be hard (And how do you remove a problem officer in that situation?). Eventually Blizz has to put the power with someone, and they decided to consolidate it in the GL. Also, it comes back to the very issue that Grimmloch (Albeit in his own brusque fashion) brings up.

You CAN move. That's the wonder of a capitalist (RE: NOT Democratic) society. A GL acts crazy and does bad things? People move, the guild gets smaller and eventually dies. The unfortunate part is there are people with vested interest in that guild that don't want it to. The unfortunate truth is: It sucks (For lack of a better term) but it can happen to the best of guilds. A GL and officers can abuse power just as much as a GL alone can, and rule by committee is impossible to implement (not to mention unwieldy).

I do have to point out to Grimm, however, that moving guilds is not NEARLY as easy as /gquit. I myself helped build a raiding team in my guild, was an officer and watched it grow from 150 toons to 500+ over WotLK. I have some issues and things that make me unhappy, but I've also watched it rise to a lvl 23 guild and like the perks, but am in constant conflict with the GL as an officer who doesn't like the 'recruit anybody' or 'Officers get to go on everything, regardless of output' mentality. I don't even play that much anymore, but the relationships I DO have (even with the GL) PLUS the perks keep me in there.

At the same time, IF I moved, it would to be the guild of a buddy who used to be one of my officers when I was a GL. Much smaller, but I like the environment. If I changed it would be my choice, understanding the benefits I would lose, while the social aspects I would gain. I can't complain about this choice, because cost/benefit is the nature of any choice.

The end result? I'm glad this is a game, so I can be in multiple places at once. I have my tank/DPS in the first guild and my PvP toon in the second. That may change, but realID makes it so that if it did, it wouldn't really affect my social circle much except that I might get a few :'( from friends and a few people that only befriend me for my rank who wouldn't talk to me. Not a big deal all-in-all.

PS: Thanks Shorty. You are now my hero for making me your hero :P
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90 Draenei Shaman
12675
I bought a guild tabard today and send it to my low lvl alt (just neutral with guild) in another guilt and it works. Instead of 5 she got 10 rep. It might work because I also have revered members in that guild. Not sure if you need to have a higher rep member in the same guild.

As for the answers...I guess Blizz made it clear they are not going to change anything right now. (looking into it, thinking about it). Adding more lvls to the guildsystem will widen the gap even further but that is something they plan.

As for me I stay in the guilds I'm in. Perks are fine but not the world. What worries me far more that at 85 I'm rather bored. If I wouldn't lvl alts to explore the old/new zones I would be waiting for changes doing nothing.
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81 Human Paladin
1145
04/27/2011 10:37 AMPosted by Oenemeus
I feel as if the whole social ties part just isn't enough. As someone in a brand new guild with a few friends I can say that our roster has never exceeded 20 people. Mostly because people would join, see our level and then quit. While I admit the few people who have stayed have proven themselves to be our real "friends" and will be rewarded for it, it still doesn't solve the problem that leveling our guild takes forever. Don't get me wrong I don't think you guys screwed up big with it. I think you're on the right track but I would definitely love to see some bonuses for us smaller guilds to keep the playing field even.


This ^^. We've had the same situation in our guild. I joined the guild as a 22 and was among the highest lvl toons in it. We hit lvl 2 just like two days ago, as you can see, I'm now a 72. it took us 50 lvl's worth to lvl the guild ONCE. Granted, we all PVP'd and stuff and you don't get guild XP for that, but, still.
We worked hard to lvl that guild and got no where fast at all because of our lvl. Some more bonus's to small guilds and stuff would be much loved.
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