4.2 Biggest PVE Nerf ever?

85 Night Elf Priest
8855
Many crowd control abilities no longer cause creatures to attack players when they are cast. The creature will not attack the player when the crowd control wears off, and nearby creatures will not become hostile to the player either. However, if a visible player gets too close to the target creature, the creature will remember and attack the player when the crowd control effect wears off. The intent is to make it easier for dungeon groups to manage crowd control assignments and pulling packs of hostile NPCs. The abilities affected by this change are: Hibernate, Entangling Roots, Wyvern Sting (will still cause hostility when it begins to deal damage), Freezing Trap, Polymorph, Repentance, Shackle Undead, Blind, Hex, Bind Elemental, Banish, Seduction.

No coordination is needed for clearing trash in instances anymore, why even have trash anymore, just make the whole dungeon/raid bosses!

If this change goes live, assuming that each DPS and possibly the healer can CC, every pull of trash will be one mob at a time, setup way ahead of the pull just to be leisurely aggro'd by the tank.
Gone will be the coordination of planning the attack of the enemies facing your group.

Is this a good idea? In my opinion this will take all the challenge out of 5 man dungeons and raids. Rouges used to be valued for their unique ability to sap and setup one mob for a pull, that always made a pull easier, imagine everyone in the group with that ability.
>>>>Homogenization anyone?<<<<

Maybe Blizz really wants the game to be a faceroll and to be only about gearing people up for raid content. I know a few people in my guild share these thoughts, I was wondering what the rest of the community thinks about this.

I started the game near the end of ICC raid content and the content of the game I've enjoyed the most is the Zul'Aman remake with its focus on teamwork compared to the dissaster of ease that plagued WOTLK content. I'm worried that the game is starting to navigate back towards that easiness for the sake of pleasing people who don't want to learn how to be better players.

tl/dr
blizz is ruining the game by caving in to casuals who say ZA/ZG are too hard and need a nerf


The only players who use CC these days are the skilled players who already clear the encounters.
85 Tauren Death Knight
8330
I would hardly call this a nerf, especially since trash is just trash and doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
tl/dr
blizz is ruining the game by caving in to bads who say ZA/ZG are too hard and need a nerf

Fixed
90 Night Elf Druid
8250
05/03/2011 02:57 PMPosted by Phy
I would hardly call this a nerf, especially since trash is just trash and doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Then bosses are just bosses and dont matter in the grand scheme of things. If you cant clear the trash then you cant down the boss.
90 Night Elf Druid
8250
If you think coordinating CC is what brings "challenge" to the game, and therefore fun. You have a serious problem.

Sorry that there are those of us who enjoy team work in group based content and prefer it over hurp derp AoE spam. Maybe your right, WoW shouldnt be a diverse game, it should only appeal to a single mindset.
Edited by Noctemtenchi on 5/3/2011 3:12 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Mage
0
05/03/2011 01:33 PMPosted by Noctemtenchi
This change greatly nullifies the need for coordination between group members. Which further shifts the game away from the idea of team work to that of an individualistic view point.

That is exactly my point, thank you sir.
10 Gnome Rogue
70
Many crowd control abilities no longer cause creatures to attack players when they are cast. The creature will not attack the player when the crowd control wears off, and nearby creatures will not become hostile to the player either. However, if a visible player gets too close to the target creature, the creature will remember and attack the player when the crowd control effect wears off. The intent is to make it easier for dungeon groups to manage crowd control assignments and pulling packs of hostile NPCs. The abilities affected by this change are: Hibernate, Entangling Roots, Wyvern Sting (will still cause hostility when it begins to deal damage), Freezing Trap, Polymorph, Repentance, Shackle Undead, Blind, Hex, Bind Elemental, Banish, Seduction.

No coordination is needed for clearing trash in instances anymore, why even have trash anymore, just make the whole dungeon/raid bosses!

If this change goes live, assuming that each DPS and possibly the healer can CC, every pull of trash will be one mob at a time, setup way ahead of the pull just to be leisurely aggro'd by the tank.
Gone will be the coordination of planning the attack of the enemies facing your group.

Is this a good idea? In my opinion this will take all the challenge out of 5 man dungeons and raids. Rouges used to be valued for their unique ability to sap and setup one mob for a pull, that always made a pull easier, imagine everyone in the group with that ability.
>>>>Homogenization anyone?<<<<

Maybe Blizz really wants the game to be a faceroll and to be only about gearing people up for raid content. I know a few people in my guild share these thoughts, I was wondering what the rest of the community thinks about this.

I started the game near the end of ICC raid content and the content of the game I've enjoyed the most is the Zul'Aman remake with its focus on teamwork compared to the dissaster of ease that plagued WOTLK content. I'm worried that the game is starting to navigate back towards that easiness for the sake of pleasing people who don't want to learn how to be better players.

tl/dr
blizz is ruining the game by caving in to casuals who say ZA/ZG are too hard and need a nerf


How does this hurt you? How is the game 'ruined'?
85 Tauren Paladin
4945
This change really doesn't change any major part of gameplay, but it will change how the game is played/approached. It is a step in a direction that moves away from requiring coordination in groups and not requiring it. This change itself isn't too toxic, but I, and probably most others, are worried that the next "biggest nerf ever" might actually be game breaking.
85 Tauren Death Knight
8330
05/03/2011 03:06 PMPosted by Noctemtenchi
I would hardly call this a nerf, especially since trash is just trash and doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

Then bosses are just bosses and dont matter in the grand scheme of things. If you cant clear the trash then you cant down the boss.
The boss is where the challenge is supposed to be, so actually they do matter.
85 Orc Warlock
15100
05/03/2011 03:14 PMPosted by Sakiri
I'm waiting for the cc change to go in just to watch the tank still charge right in and break them all.


So true.

I think people do raise valid points though about the game shifting away from large group play to more and more solo play. WoW isn't so much an MMO now as a lobby where you wait for your que to pop, teleport to where you need to be, and have your teaqm preassembled.

85 Night Elf Warrior
4595
05/03/2011 12:49 PMPosted by Provaporous
Many crowd control abilities no longer cause creatures to attack players when they are cast.


This makes me sad. New strategy for pulling groups in Uldum dungeons:

1) Wait for trash group to patrol as far away as they will go
2) Casually sheep, frog, and trap whichever ones you want
3) Wait for remaining trash to patrol back over
4) Kill them at leisure. No need to reapply cc either!
4a) When the healer falls asleep, tie his shoe laces together. Or draw the horde/alliance (opposing faction) symbol onto his forehead with a marker. Fill his hand with shaving cream and tickle his eyebrows. Dip fingers into a bucket of hot water. You get the idea.
90 Gnome Mage
11510
let me restate the original post, again, so you can re-read it and beat yourself up over your mistake. The important parts are bolded.



Yep thats about right. "vastly easier"


Easier isn't the right word. Neater is better. You know what sucks? Being on a mage, Polymorphing one mob, and being beset by a group of mobs while the tank takes his good old time grabbing them off you.

All this is doing is making us less dependent on the tank in EVERY BLOODY ASPECT of the dungeons. If anything, this is a quality of life improvement for tanks.


You know, I'm not one to pretend leetness or preach about how the game used to be so much harder or blah blah blah, but this seriously sounds like the biggest easing of game mechanics ever to be considered. I mean CC pulls and agro management create some challenge. It makes people have to think about how to do things. Now it'll just be mark, mark, mark, CC, CC, CC, and then kill one mob at a time without much worry. I guess all the self proclaimed elites that have been claiming they love the added challenge in cata are about to soil themselves on this one.
Edited by Lissancy on 5/3/2011 3:52 PM PDT
85 Tauren Warrior
3165
05/03/2011 12:49 PMPosted by Provaporous
Rouges


I stopped reading here.
85 Worgen Mage
9610
As someone who tanks and DPSs, the patch is an insult to my intelligence, if nothing else.

It will make my daily solo H UP run the tiniest bit easier, though.
Community Manager
Oh, the hyperbole! I firmly believe kittens around the world are now crying because of the doom and gloom in this post. Is this what you wanted? Do you want to make kittens worldwide suffer? That's what happens when you make hyperbolic statements. The cat population dies off from despair.

Many crowd control abilities no longer cause creatures to attack players when they are cast. The creature will not attack the player when the crowd control wears off, and nearby creatures will not become hostile to the player either. However, if a visible player gets too close to the target creature, the creature will remember and attack the player when the crowd control effect wears off. The intent is to make it easier for dungeon groups to manage crowd control assignments and pulling packs of hostile NPCs. The abilities affected by this change are: Hibernate, Entangling Roots, Wyvern Sting (will still cause hostility when it begins to deal damage), Freezing Trap, Polymorph, Repentance, Shackle Undead, Blind, Hex, Bind Elemental, Banish, Seduction.

No coordination is needed for clearing trash in instances anymore, why even have trash anymore, just make the whole dungeon/raid bosses!

If this change goes live, assuming that each DPS and possibly the healer can CC, every pull of trash will be one mob at a time, setup way ahead of the pull just to be leisurely aggro'd by the tank.
Gone will be the coordination of planning the attack of the enemies facing your group.

Is this a good idea? In my opinion this will take all the challenge out of 5 man dungeons and raids. Rouges used to be valued for their unique ability to sap and setup one mob for a pull, that always made a pull easier, imagine everyone in the group with that ability.
>>>>Homogenization anyone?<<<<

Maybe Blizz really wants the game to be a faceroll and to be only about gearing people up for raid content. I know a few people in my guild share these thoughts, I was wondering what the rest of the community thinks about this.

I started the game near the end of ICC raid content and the content of the game I've enjoyed the most is the Zul'Aman remake with its focus on teamwork compared to the dissaster of ease that plagued WOTLK content. I'm worried that the game is starting to navigate back towards that easiness for the sake of pleasing people who don't want to learn how to be better players.

tl/dr
blizz is ruining the game by caving in to casuals who say ZA/ZG are too hard and need a nerf


It sounds like you're rockin' in this expansion. Presumably you even have an organized group of players with whom you play regularly. Maybe you even use vent so that marking and pulling targets is second nature. Perhaps if others aren't on your level of experience or play, they deserve to fail. Serves them right.

We disagree.

Dungeon Finder has suffered in Cataclysm because many of the Heroics are quite difficult for uncoordinated groups. That point is almost impossible to dispute. Some of the more elite players may say, “Good! Dungeon Finder was a stupid idea.” If you don’t adhere to that argument -- and we don’t -- there are basically two choices: make the dungeons so easy that they don’t require communication, or make the communication easier. We like for dungeons to be challenging, but we don’t like when the challenges are logistical in nature. You still need to know which targets to CC, which creatures are immune to which forms of CC, make sure you don’t break the CC, etc. And that is ignoring all of the many ways to fail that aren’t related to CC (such as say most boss encounters).

Related, even with Call to Arms, tanks are often in highest demand for Dungeon Finder, and we think this is largely because tanks are expected to lead and set the pace of a dungeon run. It’s a ton of responsibility. A tank I work with said recently, “I don’t even mind doing all that, but it’s just such a pain to have to manually mark targets every single pull while the other players just wait around for me to tell them what to do.” With this change, there is less need to sit down and try to communicate about which is the sheep target and which is the trap target. And if someone CC’s the wrong thing, there is more chance for recovery. It’s the way Sap has worked for years, and you don’t generally see players calling for groups with 3 rogues just to make the trash that much easier.

We promise that the average group will still wipe in dungeons even with this change. We have plenty of data to back that up that supposition.
Edited by Zarhym on 5/3/2011 4:21 PM PDT
85 Dwarf Paladin
3855
Oh, the hyperbole! I firmly believe kittens around the world are now crying because of the doom and gloom in this post. Is this what you wanted? Do you want to make kittens worldwide suffer? That's what happens when you make hyperbolic statements. The cat population dies off from despair.

Many crowd control abilities no longer cause creatures to attack players when they are cast. The creature will not attack the player when the crowd control wears off, and nearby creatures will not become hostile to the player either. However, if a visible player gets too close to the target creature, the creature will remember and attack the player when the crowd control effect wears off. The intent is to make it easier for dungeon groups to manage crowd control assignments and pulling packs of hostile NPCs. The abilities affected by this change are: Hibernate, Entangling Roots, Wyvern Sting (will still cause hostility when it begins to deal damage), Freezing Trap, Polymorph, Repentance, Shackle Undead, Blind, Hex, Bind Elemental, Banish, Seduction.

No coordination is needed for clearing trash in instances anymore, why even have trash anymore, just make the whole dungeon/raid bosses!

If this change goes live, assuming that each DPS and possibly the healer can CC, every pull of trash will be one mob at a time, setup way ahead of the pull just to be leisurely aggro'd by the tank.
Gone will be the coordination of planning the attack of the enemies facing your group.

Is this a good idea? In my opinion this will take all the challenge out of 5 man dungeons and raids. Rouges used to be valued for their unique ability to sap and setup one mob for a pull, that always made a pull easier, imagine everyone in the group with that ability.
>>>>Homogenization anyone?<<<<

Maybe Blizz really wants the game to be a faceroll and to be only about gearing people up for raid content. I know a few people in my guild share these thoughts, I was wondering what the rest of the community thinks about this.

I started the game near the end of ICC raid content and the content of the game I've enjoyed the most is the Zul'Aman remake with its focus on teamwork compared to the dissaster of ease that plagued WOTLK content. I'm worried that the game is starting to navigate back towards that easiness for the sake of pleasing people who don't want to learn how to be better players.

tl/dr
blizz is ruining the game by caving in to casuals who say ZA/ZG are too hard and need a nerf


It sounds like you're rockin' in this expansion. Presumably you even have an organized group of players with whom you play regularly. Maybe you even use vent so that marking and pulling targets is second nature. Perhaps if others aren't on your level of experience or play, they deserve to fail. Serves them right.

We disagree.

Dungeon Finder has suffered in Cataclysm because many of the Heroics are quite difficult for uncoordinated groups. That point is almost impossible to dispute. Some of the more elite players may say, “Good! Dungeon Finder was a stupid idea.” If you don’t adhere to that argument -- and we don’t -- there are basically two choices: make the dungeons so easy that they don’t require communication, or make the communication easier. We like for dungeons to be challenging, but we don’t like when the challenges are logistical in nature. You still need to know which targets to CC, which creatures are immune to which forms of CC, make sure you don’t break the CC. And that is ignoring all of the many ways to fail that aren’t related to CC (such as say most boss encounters).

Related, even with Call to Arms, tanks are often in highest demand for Dungeon Finder, and we think this is largely because tanks are expected to lead and set the pace of a dungeon run. It’s a ton of responsibility. A tank I work with said recently, “I don’t even mind doing all that, but it’s just such a pain to have to manually mark targets every single pull while the other players just wait around for me to tell them what to do.” With this change, there is less need to sit down and try to communicate about which is the sheep target and which is the trap target. And if someone CC’s the wrong thing, there is more chance for recovery. It’s the way Sap has worked for years, and you don’t generally see players calling for groups with 3 rogues just to make the trash that much easier.

We promise that the average group will still wipe in dungeons even with this change. We have plenty of data to back that up that supposition.

Is it safe to say that you have had it with this noise?

'Cause I think it is.
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