Savage Defense Nerf Discussion

90 Worgen Druid
12790
This one makes me laugh:

[20:50:26.901] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 22477)
[20:50:28.281] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 21270)
[20:50:28.281] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 21270)
[20:50:28.281] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 21270)
[20:50:29.917] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 20064)
[20:50:31.462] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 18856)
[20:50:31.485] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 18856)


This is what happens when Reesi damage farms on whelps that are already dead! But, it shows perfectly the problem that Blood Shield used to have.
Edited by Reesi on 5/5/2011 1:01 PM PDT
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85 Tauren Druid
0
Well, sometimes it's good:
[20:45:57.258] Reesi gains Savage Defense from Reesi (Remaining: 15782)
[20:45:57.721] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 17176)

(holy crap a 2k difference in shield strength in .5 seconds!)

Sometimes it's no change:
[20:46:20.559] Reesi gains Savage Defense from Reesi (Remaining: 20110)
[20:46:21.370] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 20110)
(I would have expected a bigger decay; my suspicion here is that Reesi hit in between these two moments with something like maul)

And then there are the bad:
[20:46:28.975] Reesi gains Savage Defense from Reesi (Remaining: 20787)
[20:46:30.598] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 20268)


[20:47:01.946] Reesi gains Savage Defense from Reesi (Remaining: 21873)
[20:47:02.290] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 21873)
[20:47:03.541] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 21873)
[20:47:05.204] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 21300)
[20:47:10.749] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 18033)
[20:47:13.797] Reesi's Savage Defense fades from Reesi (Remaining: 18033)

(note that this is REALLY bad; it fades after 3 seconds with literally nothing that removes it, which means the timer doesn't get refreshed even if you do refresh the buff; this appears to be a bug no matter how you slice it)

[20:48:16.972] Reesi gains Savage Defense from Reesi (Remaining: 10411)
[20:48:18.031] Twilight Drake hits Reesi 31666 (A: 12737)
[20:48:18.143] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 10411)
[20:48:18.184] Reesi's Savage Defense fades from Reesi (Remaining: 0)
[20:48:20.437] Twilight Drake hits Reesi 39670

I don't see how the above can be anything other the example of partial refreshes sucking. I know combat log shenanigans can be a problem, blah blah - but there's a 4 second gap here and no indication that another shield was used in this time.

[20:48:43.470] Reesi gains Savage Defense from Reesi (Remaining: 15789)
[20:48:46.285] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 14699)

[20:48:51.710] Twilight Drake hits Reesi 14146
[20:48:51.900] Reesi gains Savage Defense from Reesi (Remaining: 17383)
[20:48:51.900] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 3237)
[20:48:52.335] Sinestra hits Reesi 29016 (A: 3237)
(well, there's a crappy time to have this happen)

[20:48:59.151] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 4589)
[20:48:59.559] Sinestra hits Reesi 24120 (A: 4589)
[20:49:00.008] Reesi's Savage Defense fades from Reesi (Remaining: 0)
[20:49:01.151] Reesi gains Savage Defense from Reesi (Remaining: 20811)
[20:49:01.365] Sinestra hits Reesi 11969 (A: 20811)

Here's what I don't get about the combat log issue; why would it be correct in the last one here, but incorrect before this?

[20:49:13.628] Reesi gains Savage Defense from Reesi (Remaining: 24585)
[20:49:14.037] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 24585)
[20:49:14.765] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 23982)

[20:50:22.698] Sinestra hits Reesi 46473 (A: 28779)
[20:50:23.065] Reesi's Savage Defense fades from Reesi (Remaining: 0)
[20:50:24.222] Reesi gains Savage Defense from Reesi (Remaining: 21873)
[20:50:26.901] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 22477)
[20:50:28.281] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 21270)
[20:50:28.281] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 21270)
[20:50:28.281] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 21270)
[20:50:29.917] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 20064)
[20:50:31.462] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 18856)
[20:50:31.485] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 18856)
[20:50:36.728] Sinestra Flame Breath Reesi 59752 (A: 6302, R: 19963)
[20:50:38.303] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 18641)
[20:50:39.547] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 8394)
[20:50:39.552] Reesi's Savage Defense fades from Reesi (Remaining: 0)
Another example of refresh not properly sticking around; the last refresh happens later. No absorb actually happens here according to the logs.

[20:50:40.317] Reesi gains Savage Defense from Reesi (Remaining: 18229)
[20:50:40.698] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 10837)
[20:50:41.127] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 2903)
[20:50:41.127] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi 4879 (A: 2903)

Yeah, I don't know either.
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85 Tauren Druid
0
More fun:
20:50:41.513] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 18651)
[20:50:41.587] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 10869)
[20:50:41.871] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 18651)
[20:50:41.871] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 18651)
[20:50:41.925] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 10047)
[20:50:42.318] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 2528)
[20:50:42.750] Twilight Whelp Twilight Spit Reesi 3403 (R: 791)
[20:50:44.341] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi 6141 (A: 2528)
[20:50:44.341] Twilight Whelp Twilight Spit Reesi 3619 (R: 781)

Another part of the confusion; I'm leaving out whenever a full absorb happens. Even so, the below hit at 50:44 shouldn't ever happen if refreshes refresh fully. This again leads me to believe that refreshes on SD refresh the duration but not the value if there exists some absorption left but it wasn't fully touched.

There are more like that, but here's a good example:
[20:50:56.332] Reesi gains Savage Defense from Reesi (Remaining: 19702)
[20:50:56.483] Twilight Whelp Twilight Spit Reesi 4886 (R: 1205)
[20:50:56.533] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi Miss
[20:50:57.169] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi Absorb (8454)
[20:50:57.169] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi Dodge
[20:50:57.169] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi Dodge
[20:50:57.407] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi Dodge
[20:50:57.538] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 11248)
[20:50:58.018] Twilight Whelp Twilight Spit Reesi 6022 (R: 827)
[20:50:58.509] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi Absorb (7151)
[20:50:58.755] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 4097)
[20:50:58.955] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi 3762 (A: 4097)
[20:50:59.072] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi Dodge

On this, there is literally no way that she should be taking any damage from whelps here. If she took even a small amount of damage that would be wrong. It's impossible to say whether or not that's what happened, but it doesn't look very good.
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85 Tauren Druid
0
And then there are the times that even the log gets confused:

[20:51:20.863] Reesi gains Savage Defense from Reesi (Remaining: 22229)
[20:51:20.863] Twilight Whelp Twilight Spit Reesi 9624 (R: 831)
[20:51:21.750] Twilight Whelp Twilight Spit Reesi 8326 (R: 1198)
[20:51:21.846] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi Absorb (8281)
[20:51:21.879] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi Absorb (7279)
[20:51:21.949] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi Miss
[20:51:22.046] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 13948)
[20:51:22.304] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi 2739 (A: 6669)
[20:51:22.383] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi Miss
[20:51:22.453] Reesi's Savage Defense fades from Reesi (Remaining: 0)
[20:51:23.778] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi 9731

So...the next twilight whelp isn't perfectly absorbed, even though the shield says it has 13948, but it goes away anyway? The math doesn't work out here at all - unless you subtract the first two from the main shield and then completely ignore the 'remaining' part.

Then there's fun stuff like this:
[20:51:27.367] Reesi gains Savage Defense from Reesi (Remaining: 22477)
[20:51:27.383] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 14487)
[20:51:27.481] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi Dodge
[20:51:27.481] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi Absorb (7104)
[20:51:27.624] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi Absorb (8559)
[20:51:27.636] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 7383)
[20:51:27.709] Reesi's Savage Defense fades from Reesi (Remaining: 0)
[20:51:27.709] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi Dodge
[20:51:27.709] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi 8285
[20:51:28.436] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi 9310
[20:51:28.863] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi 8700
[20:51:28.913] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi Dodge
[20:51:28.913] Twilight Whelp hits Reesi 8929

This goes into the old spell reflect mechanics, I think, where things just end up processing way out of order.

In any case, looking at the logs in the case of savage defense mechanics is at best frustrating because we know the logs are broken, and at worst hugely damning of how bad savage defense is shown in the logs. The good news is that if you have a high vengeance stack for most of the fight and don't get a lot of dodge streaks you'll probably be okay; Reesi only got hosed a few times in Sinestra. The bad news is that the evidence is still massively in favor of SD being nerfed badly in 4.1.
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90 Worgen Druid
12790
05/05/2011 01:07 PMPosted by Fellhoof
(note that this is REALLY bad; it fades after 3 seconds with literally nothing that removes it, which means the timer doesn't get refreshed even if you do refresh the buff; this appears to be a bug no matter how you slice it)

I know the exact moment that happened. It's not as critical as it looks. That was when the Paladin tank taunted with his remaining whelps. I wasn't being hit, but I still had vengeance so I was damage farming with Swipe and Thrash before I had to pick up my own whelps.

Oh wait. I see what that is. Hmm.

A lot of the "refresh" oddities are just the combat log parsing errors (so we were told and hope).

The duration thing is a little strange, though.
Edited by Reesi on 5/5/2011 1:25 PM PDT
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85 Tauren Druid
0
Right; there's no reason that SD should fade there that I can tell. I can see it getting reduced via vengeance, but at least by the combat log it should have another 7 seconds or so before dying a horrible death. And you don't get hit by anything either. That seems to be a bug.

Filed bug report here:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2483689473#1

Did we ever get any confirmation that the combat log parsing was the culprit for all the behaviors we saw?
Edited by Fellhoof on 5/5/2011 1:44 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
I'm just angry that a higher strength shield can be replaced with a lower strength one.

So what, stop attacking the boss until you get hit? Wat.
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90 Worgen Druid
12790
05/05/2011 01:39 PMPosted by Fellhoof
Did we ever get any confirmation that the combat log parsing was the culprit for all the behaviors we saw?

Aside from that blue post saying that the combat logs aren't designed to be picked apart the way we do...

Any kind of evidence would have to occur with real-time combat logging with real-time video to see that it's acting properly.

I'm just angry that a higher strength shield can be replaced with a lower strength one.

So what, stop attacking the boss until you get hit? Wat.

That should be addressed. DKs had the same fallout, and they could even control theirs. We cannot.
Edited by Reesi on 5/5/2011 1:42 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
That should be addressed. DKs had the same fallout, and they could even control theirs. We cannot.

Could theoretically have an impact on things like Tia/FD uptime. Although I doubt losing those stacks is worth it.

Or on any subsequently designed trinkets.

But this sort of behaviour definitely drives the value of on-use / single proc trinkets wayyyyy down as their duration is close to expiring.

And that's just asinine.
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85 Tauren Druid
0
It's also interesting to see that even with things beating on her left and right Reesi's shield size still varies quite dramatically throughout the fight and even during parts of the fight where she's just getting hammered - anywhere from 20k to 22k in the really hard cases, and anywhere from 22k to 15k with gaps.

Sinestra also just wrecks druids here given her swing timer increases over time and she starts getting .9 second swings.
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90 Worgen Druid
12790
well, wait.

I switched to Cat Form. so I could lolswipe the whelps on the transition.

[20:47:01.946] Reesi gains Savage Defense from Reesi (Remaining: 21873)
[20:47:02.290] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 21873)
[20:47:03.541] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 21873)
[20:47:05.204] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 21300)
[20:47:10.749] Reesi's Savage Defense is refreshed by Reesi (Remaining: 18033)
[20:47:13.797] Reesi's Savage Defense fades from Reesi (Remaining: 18033)
[20:47:13.797] Reesi gains Cat Form from Reesi
[20:47:13.797] Reesi casts Cat Form
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85 Tauren Druid
0
Ah! That explains that one. It doesn't explain the bad refreshes part. That's good at least.
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85 Tauren Druid
12415
How do you set up the log browser at world of logs to search for savage defense? I can't get it to filter anything appropriately and it's driving me nuts.
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90 Worgen Druid
12790
05/05/2011 09:39 PMPosted by Peaceflower
How do you set up the log browser at world of logs to search for savage defense? I can't get it to filter anything appropriately and it's driving me nuts.

Make sure you're removing the default filter (it shows everything).

Add new > Check Aura > Name > Spell Name > Run.

For stuff that's hitting you... Add New > Check Miss, Hit > Name (of monster) > Target (your name)

That's very basic, anyway. I don't know how to work the expression editor.
Edited by Reesi on 5/5/2011 9:48 PM PDT
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85 Tauren Druid
8240
It seems like a lot of the technical issues we are having could be fixed by jacking up the modifier to savage defence from 35% and changing the scaling per mastery point and having it scale off our pre-vengeance AP.

Would eliminate the reduction in importance as dodge goes up and make balancing it considerably easier as it would not vary boss to boss. The only thing that could cause a spike that i can think of would be a proc of some kind.

Im not sure ho easy it would be to differentiate AP from vengeance from our static buffed AP but it would seem to take a lot of the unnecessary randomness out of it.
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85 Tauren Druid
0
It seems like a lot of the technical issues we are having could be fixed by jacking up the modifier to savage defence from 35% and changing the scaling per mastery point and having it scale off our pre-vengeance AP.
No, that doesn't fix anything. As long as it is a static absorption it will have problems. It will either always be too strong or too weak compared to block; there is no real middle ground.

Vengeance scaling is an issue, but it's really one of the only things that makes it vaguely relevant.
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85 Tauren Druid
8240
No, that doesn't fix anything. As long as it is a static absorption it will have problems. It will either always be too strong or too weak compared to block; there is no real middle ground.

Vengeance scaling is an issue, but it's really one of the only things that makes it vaguely relevant.


I guess i was not clear enough to what i meant. I am not talking about the the inherent issues to the mechanic itself. SD is what it is and we just have to deal with the good or bad scaling as it comes.

What i was talking about is more the fact that we are balanced around max vengeance and it makes the ability difficult. The way i see it that causes several problems that would be fixed by changing it to scale off base/buffed AP and omit vengeance.

1) some bosses dont max vengeance
2) SD strength diminishes with dodges
3) it is unpredictable due to drops in vengeance

I think that the mechanic has issues that are not changed by making it scale off base/buffed AP but adding vengeance imparts a certain amount of randomness to our mit that isnt there without it. we have a like 40% chance to crit, then a 50% chance to trigger and that should be where the random stops. adding in the chance that vengeance drops or that we dodge an attack and lose mit is not something that makes sense to a mechanic like this.

Also this would cut down the people advocating stam as a way to increase SD.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15700
Felhoof's point was that the block mechanics for the other three tank classes scale with the damage that the boss does. If savage defense only was a function of the stats on our gear then either we would block much more than other classes on weak hitting bosses or we would block too little on hard hitting bosses.
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85 Tauren Druid
0
No, Jey makes a good point. That would help with the issue of making SD much more reliable as far as the damage it could absorb on a regular basis, and it would make it less dependent on phase transitions and the like.

At the same time, however, you run into the problem where SD is balanced around heavy hitters and not weak ones to some degree. If you make SD have about twice the value of block that it does now as a base, bears become the TBC-version of paladins in heroics; no one would remotely be able to touch them, as they absorb 20k a shield. If you make it around 15k, then bears are losing 7k a blocked hit against big bosses. And both don't scale with the primary increase that a bear gets as they get gear - more health. You can play around with that some, but ultimately mastery is a poor stat already, and this solution only makes it moreso. That, and agility is the primary way to get base AP; as content gets harder you're going to end up sacrificing agility for stamina, and paradoxically that's going to mean you get hit harder even when you block.

It's a tough problem. If only there was some way to make it so that shields scaled with the incoming boss damage and not based on AP of the tank...hmmm...gotta think...gotta think...

Nah.
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