Combat tables, diminishing returns and PANDAS

100 Draenei Warrior
14140
No, only dodge from dodge rating and agility do.
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100 Human Paladin
8595
Hey there, I was wondering if you knew and could explain how armor + resilience + Shield of the Rightous for pallies worked together when taking damage from melee classes

My armor is 54,156 (reduces physical damage by 53.93%)
Resilience is 8,621 (64.38%)
Shield of the Rightous with my mastery reduces physical damage I take by 47%

All up this is a massive reduction. I would like to know if you could explain the mechanics of this a little better.
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100 Draenei Warrior
14140
Firstly, do keep in mind that not all physical damage is reduced by armour. Bleeds, for example, aren't.

But! Say a rogue comes up and hits you with Mutilate for, for the sake of an example, 100k damage. Your armor then reduces that down to 46.07k damage [100k * (1 - 53.93/100)], then Resilience brings that down to 16.41k damage [46.07k * (1 - 64.38/100)], then your SotR brings it down to 8700 [16.41k * (1 - 47/100)] damage. Which is pretty tiny, but I think that for one thing, I'm hugely underestimating how much damage abilities do, but you are right, that is a pretty decent damage reduction.
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100 Human Paladin
8595
Ahh thanks, that makes alot of sense. Thanks for the help
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90 Dwarf Warrior
6650
Working my way through this now. Nice read!
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90 Tauren Warrior
9185
This thread is brilliant and so are the comments, still my question is where is it that I'd want to be in terms of avoidance percentage?

Ran the two macros last night and 1) 45% and 2) was 11.6..7 if I remember correctly.

Now I might just be dumb, but with reforging and stat priority Mastery and Parry are supreme over Dodge. I.E. Parry is normally 2.5x what your dodge is.

My starts are as follows:
40% mastery
16.33% parry
8.20% dodge
63731 Armor

So at what % do diminishing returns come into these stats?
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100 Draenei Warrior
14140
Umm... Off the top of my head, you still want more parry than dodge, but to reiterate, getting the right parry/dodge ratio is less important than your other, more important stats (Such as mastery and hit/exp).

Also, as a random other note, Bloodbath is better than Avatar.
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90 Tauren Warrior
9185
Aright thanks and yeah it is. :)
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
15840
Hi, just wondering 1:if my stats are decent or do I need to reforge more?
2: is it true that blood dk pve tanks don't need hit/exp?

stats: mastery 192.41%
parry 29.21%
dodge 9.39%
armor 36458
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100 Dwarf Death Knight
15840
or is my parry/dodge too far apart?
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100 Draenei Warrior
14140
Umm.. I think they're kinda at the limit of where they should be, but it's hard to tell because you've logged out in dps gear. Just keep in mind that maximising mastery is more important than balancing stats.

And yeah, I think that you don't need them, because DS still heals if it doesn't land and Rune Strike can't be dodged or parried. It's still helpful for dps reasons (I think) but not essential. You might be better off asking a DK about that.
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90 Tauren Warrior
6965
First, thanks for this wonderful (yet aged) article...

Secondly, I have quite a few questions. I played during Wrath (on this Toon), back when we had a Defense rating and Block was as useless as a waterproof towel. Since the thankful change in Cata, I've enjoyed maxing out my avoidance, pushing my stats down the attack table, and laughing at Stamina Stacking tanks as they lose more HP thru mob hits than I do (at least, that's the way it's always appeared to me in-game, that is)...

What I'm confused currently now is, how does avoidance and mitigation play into each other in regards to actively tanking in a fight? For example, this warrior has:

Avoidance: 47.36% (food buffed, and per your macro formula)
Block: 27.09%
Crit. Block: 40% (as indicated on in-game Mastery rating)
Armor Rating: 57% (buffed, indicated on tool-tip)
Block dmg reduction: 31% (1% added by meta-gem)

So out of that, if I understand this correctly, I will still take 52.64% of the hits given since block was separated from the avoidance table. Of that 52.64%, I have a chance to block 27.09% of that damage. If it's a crit block, I add 62% to the reduction against my armor rating (for purely physical non-bleed strikes), virtually taking no damage. If it's a normal block, then only 31%+57% or 88% of damage is mitigated, leaving me to only have to soak 12% of what the boss threw at me in the first place. (unless Defensive Stance's 25% kills this percent of damage as well)

This has me worried, as I still have the possibility of facing 52.64% of damage separately. While Block can take away about 27.09% of that damage (and possibly mitigate that damage to the point of non-existence), I'm left with a large gap of damage to try and soak. Sure, I can Shield Wall against it, and block 40% in a CD, as well as Defensive Stance giving me 25% reduction as well. Sure, I can use Shield Barrier and attempt to absorb this damage, but that depletes my Rage resource and limits my attacks to white hits. So 72.91% of the non-avoided damage is what I face due to stats, assuming I have no CD to use and running low on Rage as I am actively attacking the boss.

In this case, are there any other benefits to add towards my avoidance/mitigation rating in order to properly cover my bases for dealing with incoming damage? Or, am I already maxed out on damage mitigation/avoidance capability, and need to focus more on health and/or threat generation?

As an additive, I do boost my Health with Last Stand/Rally Cry at appropriate instances, and even pop Lifeblood to help gain health as to off-set the expense of mana for healers. I usually watch their power bars as they heal, and start to worry when they get less than 20% mana in a LFR raid group. So, I want to see if there is something on my end that I can do to increase my mitigation and help make their job easier...
Edited by Chargetarge on 8/24/2013 5:53 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Warrior
14140
I suspect you're a little confused about how block works.

A block is always* a 30% damage reduction, a critical block is always* a 60% damage reduction. So, of that 52.64% of hits that don't get avoided, 27.09% of them will be reduced by at least 30%, while 40% of that 27.09% are reduced by 60%. If that makes sense.

This is where Shield Block comes into it. Shield Block raises your block chance to 100% while it's up, so all of those 52.64% of hits that don't get avoided will be blocked, so reduced by 30%. 40% of those 52.64% of those hits will be critical blocks, so reduced by 60%.

This is why Shield Block is very powerful. While up, all melee damage you take is reduced by 30%, plus any critical blocks give you 10 rage (Kinda, there's a 3 second cooldown on how often you can gain that rage). Your second last paragraph is kinda implying that you're spending all your rage on Heroic Strike. If you are, that's kinda bad. Heroic Strike is pretty weak, and you shouldn't need it to hold threat.
Shield Block being powerful is also most of why mastery is powerful. Mastery directly improves your shield blocks, while its improvement to your passive damage reduction is pretty meh at best.

Hopefully that explains your question?

(*Eternal Primal Diamond increases that 30% to 31% and the 60% to 62%)
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90 Tauren Warrior
6965
Thanks for the reply..

I actually put a good bit of Rage into Cleave to get the 50% movement impairing debuff on trash, just so they don't go anywhere. Course, I usually stun quite a bit, since I have both my racial and various other abilities to grant CC moves in which 'lock-up' mobs in place when I'm outside of Boss fights. But that example in the second paragraph was more about 'what if there's a case where I can't use Shield Barrier' rather than 'how do I threat', no offence.

Your response does make me feel a bit better. I guess it's more about being confused over how the attack table processes enemy hits, and the damage of said hits, more than anything else. So if I have this right then:

--On Receiving Blow--
47.36% chance to avoid
52.64% chance to take hit

--If not avoided--
27.09% are blocked (31% dmg reduction)
40% are crit blocked (62% reduction)
32.91% are full hits

If that's the case, where do things like my armor rating, Defensive Stance, and other damage reduction mechanics come into play? Does Armor rating, for warriors, matter? And how much do absorbing damage mechanics (like Power Word: Shield) factor into the unmodified damage taken?

I apologize if I seem confusing. I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the 'percent of a percent to equal this' sort of thing in math, lol...
Edited by Chargetarge on 8/25/2013 8:08 AM PDT
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100 Draenei Warrior
14140
I actually put a good bit of Rage into Cleave to get the 50% movement impairing debuff on trash, just so they don't go anywhere. Course, I usually stun quite a bit, since I have both my racial and various other abilities to grant CC moves in which 'lock-up' mobs in place when I'm outside of Boss fights. But that example in the second paragraph was more about 'what if there's a case where I can't use Shield Barrier' rather than 'how do I threat', no offence.
Honestly, you'd be better off using Piercing Howl for that, but if you've got threat, mobs shouldn't be running away from you anyway.

08/25/2013 07:52 AMPosted by Chargetarge
If that's the case, where do things like my armor rating, Defensive Stance, and other damage reduction mechanics come into play? Does Armor rating, for warriors, matter?


They're figured out at the same time as the block damage reduction. More or less. So, if you get swung at for, like 100,000, your armour will reduce that by 55% or so, to 45,000, Defensive Stance reduces it by 25% to 33,750, then, if it's a block, it gets reduced by 30% to 23,625. The order that those are applied in isn't important, multiplication doesn't care about the order you do it in. So yes, armour is very important for warriors, but you can't go out of your way to gear for it anyway.

And how much do absorbing damage mechanics (like Power Word: Shield) factor into the unmodified damage taken?

Absorbs are figured out last. So if you've got a 20,000 Shield Barrier or whatever up on that hit above, you'll only take 3,625 damage.
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90 Tauren Warrior
6965
(And it was in that moment, as Chargetarge was reading the reply post, that he suddenly realized why the community gems and gears the way that they do...)

Well, this is enlightening...

So, if the math I did is right, and using the numbers in your example:
A Warrior takes 33.75% damage at base armor and stance
He/She takes 23.625% damage if they block
Or, they take 13.5% damage if they crit block, and receive an physical damage buff

So the higher the crit block chance is, the more damage mitigation a warrior has during a fight. Of course, this is assuming that avoidance is not coming into play. But if Mastery is the only component that you gem for, it would mitigate the need for avoidance altogether, and thus Warriors would rely on higher health values with large mitigation results in order to maximize their effective Heath Pool (eHP) during a raid encounter.

That explains why getting Crit Block capped is so vitally important, and why I keep seeing other warrior tanks abandoning avoidance stats altogether...

But a part of me is still not comfortable with this type of tanking, as you then become highly attached to the mana pool of the healers in a raid, as clearly their mana equates (to a fairly large degree) to a regenerative amount of your health. Sure, that would mean that Healer's total Spirit value = % of tanks HP regeneration, but that complicates the variables in the condition. Focusing on only the tank's stats alone, a high Mastery gives a large eHP, but sacrifices avoidance in the process. While this does mean you mitigate damage constantly, you end up taking constantly and risk depleting healer's mana...

But I'm not quite sure how well the alternative handles, as far as putting an avoidance tank against an eHP tank...
Edited by Chargetarge on 8/27/2013 1:34 PM PDT
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100 Draenei Warrior
14140
You're kinda getting it, but missing one of the main factors behind tank gear. It's not for overall damage reduction, it's for consistency and reliability. Avoidance isn't reliable. If you've got, say, 500k health it's better for you to take two 200k hits or even two 250k hits than to take a 400k hit but avoid another especially because that avoid is never guaranteed. If you suddenly drop down to 20% or less health your healers will start spamming you with big, quick heals like Flash Heal and that drains their mana far more than reliable damage. Reliable damage can be healed efficiently. Spiky damage cannot.
In other words, even if a gear strategy might give you more overall damage reduction, it usually isn't worth it overall if your damage intake becomes spikier and harder to predict, and thus, you're harder to heal and more likely to die.
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90 Tauren Warrior
6965
By that logic, a tank's tanking ability would then be only as good as the healer's Spirit rating, if he/she geared as you suggested. Course, a warrior is never going to take more than 34% of any form of damage that is thrown at him, unless the Boss pulls out some nasty debuffs so it increases the percent of damage taken, or does ungodly, massive damaging attacks that smack you apart in a very short time span...

Regardless, thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, at least. Truly is appreciated...
Edited by Chargetarge on 8/27/2013 4:56 PM PDT
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Sorry to getting this late in the conversation Chargetarge :).

08/27/2013 01:32 PMPosted by Chargetarge
By that logic, a tank's tanking ability would then be only as good as the healer's Spirit rating, if he/she geared as you suggested.

The short answer is no, and then yes, and then "it's complicated".
As far as my exp. go (DK, Crit/druid and warrior during MoP :( ) the one with the worse selfhealing capabilities is the warrior. We have and important level of mitigation though to compensate for that, and that leaves us dependent of the healer to a certain degree. Having said that, the capability of the healers in a group IS important in all cases, and should be taken into account in the way you manage your other abilities and CD.

Following that, you are forgetting about your Active Mitigation. Depending on your level of Mastery or general Avoidance + CD +talents, you must control the intake of dmg. Is the dmg magical? Is it melee? Do you have enough rage to throw a Shield barrier or a Shield Block? Do you need to pop up a minor cd or a large one? Those are the trick of the trade for the warrior. IF you don't use your abilities or don't react timely to the bosses, you are going to cause the healer to go OOM and the wipe will be your fault.

As I like to think, every point of HP that I don't miss, is an extra HP for someone in the raid. The healing dependency is going to be reduced this path though, with the T16-2pieces bonus, to what extend I can't tell, but it should affect our selfhealing.
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90 Tauren Warrior
6965
Well, the removal of Prime Glyphs and the hedge trimming of the Talent trees from what they were in Cata is what killed Warrior's regenerative properties. There was many a time where I had just about every regeneration ability in the Cata tree, and I was healing myself for almost half the amount a DK could. When Blizzard stripped down the tree and forced us to 'deal without' core abilities that had previously been available to us, our health generation dropped faster than Wall Street crashing. It was painful, and for a time I simply left the game over it...

I will admit that I see the massive need for block on Warriors, but I don't think it's worth sacrificing avoidance stats for Mastery. Since the new addition of Riposte, I've had my crit. chance spike from 5-10% at base, up to 27-32%, or even 47% if I Riposte during my Trinket procs. That's a pretty huge jump imo, and it gives more threat for me to maintain mobs. There are even times where I will simply ignore a boss's attack for 350k to 500k damage, saving the need to heal my health. I would imagine, that at max gear, a hybrid spec of both Mastery and Parry/Dodge can make a Warrior highly resilient...

The one thing I do wish we had, as far as a gem options goes, is the ability to increase armor rating on gear for late game play. But sadly, only Druids with their mastery get this option...
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