Combat tables, diminishing returns and PANDAS

84 Dwarf Warrior
2080
So, let me see if I read this right.

Warriors need to keep about 300 more parry rating then dodge, right? I am not at 85 so I can't run the macros yet, but is that about right? I have been readying up on a lot of posts and I saw one that said Wars need to have about 13% parry and dodge, basically keeping them equal.

Just trying to clear stuff up. Thanks for the tips
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
So, let me see if I read this right.

Warriors need to keep about 300 more parry rating then dodge, right? I am not at 85 so I can't run the macros yet, but is that about right? I have been readying up on a lot of posts and I saw one that said Wars need to have about 13% parry and dodge, basically keeping them equal.

Just trying to clear stuff up. Thanks for the tips


Keeping them near equal (which is what my macro does) is to minimize avoidance loss to diminishing returns (calling this dr lower case). For all other tanks this maximizes damage reduction (calling this DR upper case).

HOWEVER, due to the talent hold the line warriors get incentive for dipping into dr slightly in exchange for more DR from crit block. This holds true at level 85 till you get to around 300 more parry than dodge at which the DR loss from dr is greater than the DR gain from crit block.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
4605
As a DK, I am a bit confused on how Diminishing Returns will affect my tanking. Here's what I'm dealing with and your suggestions would be great:
Armor = 29625
Dodge = 15.26%
Parry = 19.27%
Mastery = 14.75

The reason Parry is so much higher than Dodge is Rune of Swordshattering (+4%). Further, my hit and expertise are quite low. I am hoping one of you amazing experts can provide insight as to how best to reforge for optimal tanking. Thanks for any suggestions!
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Warrior
14190
What you want to look at is your parry and dodge rating, not the actual percentages because things like the swordshattering rune add parry that isn't affected by diminishing returns. Looking at your character, you've got about 2200 dodge and 2000 parry. Ideally you want your parry about 70 higher than your dodge for a DK so you can probably undo some of your parry -> dodge runeforges.

As for your hit and expertise, for a DK, it's really a matter of preference. As far as I'm aware, dodge, parry and mastery are superior, especially if you're going for a low mastery build which you appear to be doing. In short, if you're holding threat when people aren't doing stupid things like attacking the wrong target or nuking the boss before you've got any vengeance, you don't need more hit/expertise.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
4605
Great advice. Thank you Waniou. So I've reforged to have more balance parry and dodge, with a little less mastery. Now sitting at Dodge of 2265 and Parry of 2334 unbuffed. When I run the macro listed on page 1, it tells me I am GTG (P = D+76), within a few points. However, when I have Horn of Winter up, my Parry jumps to 2474. And, when I run the same macro it tells me I should keep my Parry 307 points above Dodge.

The obvious question for the experts is; since HoW is up all the time (or should be), should I try to reforge to have my Parry 307 above Dodge so long as HoW is up? Or should I just leave it alone?
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Warrior
14190
Nonono, that macro is specifically made so that you use it when you don't have any buffs. That's what the +549 and the *1.05 are in it for. You give it an unbuffed character, it tells you your ideal parry - dodge so that when you do have buffs, you have the least amount of diminishing returns.
Edited by Waniou on 6/12/2011 10:18 PM PDT
Reply Quote
85 Dwarf Death Knight
2350
Thank you for this. Showed it in a way that helped me understand it. The macro you gave is nice. Helped me balance my tanking stats out more. Macro said 55.53 and I was able to get it to 50.
Reply Quote
85 Tauren Paladin
9955
As of right now hit and expertise are almost ignored. Not completely, but they are considered threat stats and right now are not encouraged. Go for all avoidance stats. Sure we miss here and there, but for the most part our threat is still fine.
Reply Quote
85 Draenei Warrior
0
can someone walk me through the conversion, im trying and screwing it up.

trying to test the following values for the DR values:

preDR, level 85 warrior:
8.488%
11.925%
14.906%
17.887%

for some reason i end up with a higher number, instead of lower.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Warrior
14190
I'm not sure what you mean Xurk, you mean you're chucking the numbers into the equation 1/(1/c + k/x)? It should always get you a smaller number. Run me through what you're doing with one of them, I have a hunch I know what you're doing but without actually seeing what you're doing, it's a bit hard.

But just going through it myself for the 8.488% one:
1/c = 0.0152366
k/x = 0.112629

1/c + k/x = 0.1278661947

Note that the left hand side is 1/x', where you're trying to solve for x'. Which means you have to do 1/0.1278661947 = 7.821%
Reply Quote
85 Draenei Warrior
0
im still trying to figure out what i did wrong. when i do the math today, its fine.

yesterday, my first set of results looked like:
8.488% 11.781338 11.7965746 8.477
11.925% 8.385744 8.4009806 11.903
14.906% 6.708707 6.7239436 14.872
17.887% 5.590652 5.6058886 17.838


then i was redoing it, starting with the 8%, and got the same results you did.
but then i started working on the 14% and ended up with 15%.

.956/14.906 = .0641352, add .0152366 = .0793718
divide 1 by .0793718 = 12.599 which is right.

best as i can figure, my dyslexia got the best of me.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Warrior
14190
What might help is using something like Excel or google docs to have a spreadsheet where one of the cells is the formula so you can chuck in the undiminished value to another cell and it'll spit out the diminished value.


Also, I've put in Mnemonic's post about real world DR values.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
8.488%-->7.821%
11.925%--->10.482%
14.906%--->12.599%
17.887%--->14.560%

Sounds like what you were doing Xurk was forgetting to add the 1/65.63144

(0.956/14.906)^-1=15.592%
Edited by Celyndrashad on 6/22/2011 9:48 AM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Warrior
14190
Aaaaaaand updated for 4.2. It's not changed much, just removed references to agility giving dodge and updated the str -> parry conversion.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Damn you people,

UPRATE WANIOU!!!!
Reply Quote
85 Orc Warrior
9115
So, if I am following what I read in Waniou post correctly. I can lose some DR, since I am a warrior and be a bit heavier on the parry then the suggested 300 parry/parry difference. Currently I am sitting at:

385 dodge/parry difference

12.57% dodge
14.30% parry
50.95% block

Now, if you add that up its 77.82% + 25 % (when shield block is active) = 102.82% Does that mean I am unhittable when shield boock is active? Also, is the 85 difference losing too much DR?
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Warrior
14190
Umm, no, from what I'm seeing (I really need to update my thread) you only need about 100 more parry rating than dodge rating before buffs to compensate for Hold the Line. Everyone else will probably want more dodge rating than parry rating before buffs.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Warrior
14190
Le shameless bump because I updated the bit in here about Hold the Line, now that my actual Hold the Line thread is up to date. 120 more parry than dodge, warriors! Not 300! 300 is too much now!

Also, do me a favour and Like this thread, I miss the shiny colours on the original posts.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Sadly its only one like per account >.<
Reply Quote
85 Human Paladin
6435
I'm going to throw these in here.

WeakAura's string that shows avoidance vs a level 85 mob in real time. dyuckaGijPlbsnkbDkbwfLKxjLAwuGBbr7ss9lOiddchdkSmkLNrbnnjY1OeBdK8nrsJtK6CcfZtKiDpa2hLuoOirzHIeEiGAIscUiusBekLpkj6Ksu0kPOxkrjZekXnHs1oLOQFkrfdvIclvsONkHPcf1vLOsBvKOAVq1FbedgDyIwSq1JH0KfXLjTzc(migTuCAq9AaPztLBlLSBP63cz4uQwUOEoqtNQUUqPTtOVlrPgpLuDEk06fjI9RghdCmJx0cVibVibhZ4fcrDFbCkrXlpgPXlsGbT7KgXSADpEb0O4fOXc6JAHz16E8cHy7OE4OEO9CeKSccgS5CoNUiuPBkeLBj9tatqFgUdPwik3s63CoNtVmdr9ordM2DsJA2jobml3oShlQO6cR6LziQVAGbZYTd7XIkQUWQ2DsJAUAWMZ5CkfJGtKDuDcyIyZ5Co3CoNtyHPxMHOEN4eaGjsmM(gTV5CoNZ5CgxcQTGbbrBKDuDcygAzICgAOv12ccMtKitrei4mLlDXQBoNZ5CoNovuDjWccAw7O6eW0WnNZ5uDGkSW0lZquVtCATPDN0OMDItFJ23CoNZ5CoJlb1wWGGOnYoQobmdTmrodd9Yme17eNiN2DsJA2jgyvTTGGjsKypko4ugpsuN2DsJAE6ur1T5CoNZ5C6ur1LaliOzTJQtaZqVmdr9oXjYPDN0OMDIbBoNZP6avyHPxMHOEN4mLoT7Kg1StCk7jtVmdr9oXP1MiM(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(kk9WDiHaxrGubSInSw(cScKIYQmXcwcWuP6yWiTfewHOgrPGGGnNZ5CoNtPyeCISJQtaZWKOeiAB7YC2y74UiuG2g7WGGa3i7OAWMZ5CoNZ5CoNZ5CoNZ5MZ5CQ9KnNZ5CZ5Co3CoNtyHPxMHOEN40AtetFJ23CoNZ5CoZQp2CFkeLBj9HvHgEICcDTnHQgm9Yme17enykfJGtKDunywxpRcn0v3CoNt1bQWctVmdr9oXjaatetFJ23CoNZ5CoZQp2CFkeLBj9HvHgEICcDTnHQgmT7Kg1St0GPumcor2r1GzD9Sk0qxDZ5CovhOU5CoNZ5CMvFS5(uik3s6dRcn8e5e6ABcvnyA3jnQzNyBdnykfJGtKDunywxpRcn0v3CoNtTNS5CoNBQ9e8IScboQJzJ2v8cVADpEHpddbIMXXmEH3ODfVa0l9XcIxelOcKgv68n4PaVOrLoFdqISRzPpkJxyn8Igv68n4fiWlIfubsSDypEkW94fLnCIVbhBwsxcbuiGYqmSKkuwsfkl4cilLkEH1lhbbq1JJnOs1smPrybQ0LsBy6siqGlG0IH4fglhbbq1JJnKwmmgOmmMyGk102kLgdlXGlGSuj8IgfgsJhhBLsnTfePwknuyyl1ySuknUaYsPIxaNGxKYeJGtKDuf3JxaIxGrTH12WleXlpggIWgUhhha

Visual Combat Table - does the same as above but in a stand alone addon
http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/visual-combat-table.aspx
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]