Combat tables, diminishing returns and PANDAS

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90 Draenei Warrior
14070
Ooh, now that's cool. I don't have WeakAuras (I hear it's better than PowerAuras but I'm too lazy to switch) but I might check out that Visual Combat Table thing.
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85 Human Paladin
6435
07/09/2011 08:34 PMPosted by Waniou
Ooh, now that's cool. I don't have WeakAuras (I hear it's better than PowerAuras but I'm too lazy to switch) but I might check out that Visual Combat Table thing.


I tried it while testing out the CTC string and it may be better memory/CPU wise...but I think PowerAuras is 100x easier to configure.
Edited by Xayton on 7/10/2011 9:39 AM PDT
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85 Tauren Warrior
3540
07/05/2011 08:27 PMPosted by Waniou
Also, do me a favour and Like this thread, I miss the shiny colours on the original posts.

Done.

Just wanted to say thanks for writing this. I've been trying to get my prot spec off the ground and my friend has been telling me all this stuff about dodge/parry DR and I had no idea what he was talking about. Very informative and easy to understand, speaking as someone with no real mathematical knowledge.
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85 Undead Death Knight
7860
ok - after reading this forum post - i appearantly have no clue.

parry rune forge is better than stoneskin?

the only raid tanking i will do is the TB bosses and ZA/ZG.

does it change for me since i am not a regular raid tank?

i play pvp and tank instances - would my approach be different from those who are raid tanks?

very nice job on the posts - very interesting

i like the mstry/stam gems and stam gems and str/stam gems - i guess there are others that would be more beneficial?
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90 Draenei Warrior
14070
Armor is at its most useful when you're taking big hits, imo, because that helps weaken down the big hits. Avoidance is at its most useful when you're tanking large groups because it can help smooth out your damage more, so for 5 mans, yes, Swordshattering is better than Stoneskin Gargoyle. Even in raids, it's still better because the amount of damage reduction you get from SS is more than the amount of DR you get from Stoneskin.

PvP, you'd probably want Fallen Crusader, the strength boost and the heal is very nice.

STR/Stam gems are generally terrible for tanking. You get enough strength from your gear and you'll get better tanking stats out of gemming parry/stam.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5805
OK...SO...Just trying to clear things up. So does the changes to agil. / dodge effect paladin tanks much? IF so, did you guys come up with a new macro to factor that in? :D Love your work btw.
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90 Draenei Warrior
14070
Yeah, none of the macros I've got posted there include agility any more. Also, I think it might have been a slight nerf to Paladin avoidance, I'm not sure and it would depend on how much agility gear you were using, but I know for warriors, the bonus to str->parry and the bonus to base dodge more than made up for the loss from agility.
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90 Human Paladin
7080
Ok, so... am I understanding diminishing returns correctly?

Currently my stats on this pally are as such:

Dodge: 10.40%
Parry: 10.64%
Block: 5.00%

Therefore, Avoidance = 26.04%

Using x' = 1/((1/c) + (k/x))
c = 0.6563
k = 0.956

I get x' = 19.25% avoidance


So when I'm in combat, despite the avoidance in my stats adding up to ~26%, I actually only get about 19% avoidance?

Edit: Something tells me that isn't right, as using this math, 100% avoidance only gives 40.33% "real" avoidance.
Edited by Taricthegem on 7/21/2011 11:32 AM PDT
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85 Human Paladin
6435
07/21/2011 11:29 AMPosted by Taricthegem
So when I'm in combat, despite the avoidance in my stats adding up to ~26%, I actually only get about 19% avoidance?


Your character sheet takes diminishing returns into account. You actually have 31.04% CTC. Considering you are not level 85 yet, you don't really need to worry yourself about your CTC and diminishing returns.
Edited by Xayton on 7/21/2011 12:43 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Warrior
14070
You do raise a few good points that I should clarify, so I've pointed out that the character sheet values are post-diminishing returns and that the formula listed is for level 85s.
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90 Human Paladin
7080
07/21/2011 12:42 PMPosted by Xayton
So when I'm in combat, despite the avoidance in my stats adding up to ~26%, I actually only get about 19% avoidance?


Your character sheet takes diminishing returns into account. You actually have 31.04% CTC. Considering you are not level 85 yet, you don't really need to worry yourself about your CTC and diminishing returns.


Ah. So, really (once you hit 85), all you need to do is to add up the dodge, parry, and block ratings on your character sheet, and add 5%? With a target of 102.4%?

P.S. The main thing I got out of your guide is that because of the diminishing return formula, it's best to keep dodge and parry as close to each other as possible. Right now, for example, my dodge is around 10.5, while my parry is around 14, so I'm focusing on getting items with more dodge in them.
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90 Draenei Warrior
14070
Basically, yeah, that's the goal.

Keep in mind though, that getting mastery is generally considered more important. Mastery's your best damage reduction stat so you want to maximise that. Normally, you'll have more parry rating than dodge rating (Because strength gives parry rating) so you'll wind up reforging your gear something like:
Dodge/mastery gear <-- Normally perfect how it is.
Parry/mastery gear <-- Reforge the parry to dodge to balance out your parry/dodge ratings.
Hit or exp/mastery gear <-- Reforge the hit or exp to dodge.
Parry/dodge gear where the parry and dodge are equal (Such as Bloodlord's Protector) <-- Reforge the parry to mastery.
Parry/dodge gear where one is greater than the other (Such as Bracers of Regal Force) <-- Reforge the higher stat to mastery (Dodge in this case), even if it would unbalance your dodge/parry because mastery is that valuable.
Hit or exp/parry or dodge gear <-- Usually, you want to avoid this because of its lack of mastery, but if you've got no choice, reforge the hit/exp to mastery unless the parry/dodge is much higher than the hit/exp. In that case, you can get a greater benefit by reforging the parry/dodge.

Obviously, this is only the case where your parry is higher than your dodge, and you only want to reforge to parry/dodge but the point that I'm taking forever to make is that you want to reforge to mastery, never away from it.
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90 Pandaren Warrior
13360
I was going to make a thread asking about the diminishing curve for total avoidance stats.

But now I know everything.

u rox.
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90 Draenei Warrior
14070
Glad to hear! Always glad to help people out. :D

On another note, added a mention of the Defstats addon. Just puts a little thing in your character screen with your total CTC and your dodge + parry. Worth a look, imo.
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90 Draenei Warrior
14070
Just added this paragraph in to the middle of the DR section:

The thought occurs that that's all rather wall o' texty, so to give you some real (albeit, exaggerated) numbers:
Say you have 1000 dodge rating and 2000 parry rating. Using the formula above and 5% base dodge and parry chance, you've got 10.43% dodge chance and 15.03% parry chance, which adds up to 25.46% avoidance (Excluding miss and block, we don't care about those for this example.
Then you reforge a quarter of that parry into dodge, so you have 1500 dodge and 1500 parry rating. You've now got 12.82% dodge and 12.82% parry chance, which adds up to 25.64% avoidance because parry isn't being diminished as much. It doesn't seem like a big difference, but it's there.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
8270
Hey Waniou I was wondering if you would be interested in collaborating with me on something.

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=635165#p635165

This shows the armor values of mastery and avoidance for paladins. Id like to do a warrior version. I dont think it would that hard as theck did most of the math already.

Would you be interested in doing something like that?
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90 Draenei Warrior
14070
It's something I've wanted to do for a while, but unfortunately, the way that parry and block interact make differentiating the formula kinda nuts. I'll comment more in a bit.
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85 Blood Elf Warrior
8850
So this is the value i ran

/run local _,s,p,n=UnitStat("player",2) print("Must be unbuffed. Try to keep Parry Rating this much higher than dodge: "..string.format("%.2f", 0-(((UnitStat("player",1)+549)*1.05-UnitStat("player",1))*0.27))


and the result was "to keep parry rating this much higher than dodge: -204.88

Armor:37359
Dodge Rating: 1972
Parry Rating: 2280
(parry to dodge diff is 308)
Block Change: 56.31

I hate to come off like i want other people to do my homework for me, but am i more or less on mark, or did i calculate something wrong?

Edit: I also ran

/run b=GetBlockChance() d=GetDodgeChance() p=GetParryChance() m=5 if UnitRace("player")=="Blood Elf" then m=m+2 end a=m+d+p+b DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(a.."% Avoidance")

and came up with 92.146 avoidance and and 117.74 avoidance Post Shield block

I've been tanking for a while but was never a huge student of the math, so I am still tryinig to get a more comprehensive view of DR and CTC
Edited by Bionus on 8/12/2011 12:20 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Warrior
14070
Err, assuming you did it without buffs, yeah that should be right.

What the macro basically does is figure out how much parry rating you get from the strength given to you by Blessing of Kings/Mark of the Wild and Battle Shout, then if you get your dodge that much higher than your parry, you'll have the minimum possible diminishing returns after you have all your raid buffs.

Those numbers all look right though.

The other thing to keep in mind is that, as a warrior, you want slightly higher parry than your dodge (120 is a good guide) because Hold the Line makes parry more favourable to you.
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hey i posted something on the forum you answered my question on if you don't mind hoping over to it

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3082250590
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