World of Warcraft™

I would just like to say it seems to me that despite reporting multiple botters farming in twilight highlands on the windrunner server seems to be a huge waste of time. Despite reporting them over and over again i continually see the same characters either underground farming or botting. No this isnt a whining thread about someone ninjaing a herb or mine from me its about the fact that unless you use these farmed mats for profession purposes it is a huge waste of time due to the horrid prices of these items on the auction house atm. This is a problem that has been getting progressively worse since cata launched. Yes i get it that most of these accounts are compromised and i understand that but thats still on the peopson that owns the account not to put their accounts in jeapordy in the first place. Just asking for some help on this issue and would appreciate any feedback thanks.

Bots are not an easy fix.
Blizzard does what it can to find out the "how" behind the botters so they can eliminate the source. Once they can identify how the program the bottetrs are using the nullify that program and ban all the accounts using it.

Yes, some of those accounts are hacked, but they should be taken care of when they are reported.
The rest are on hold until the can be shut down.

Not a happy process for the Players or for Blizzard, but there it is.

05/09/2011 10:32 PMPosted by Morandane

Despite reporting them over and over again i continually see the same characters either underground farming or botting

For the same character your really only need to report them once then go about your business. Blizzard takes these reports seriously. They investigate every report. They do not just insta-ban. They try to learn the code and break the botting program so it can no longer be used. Unfortunately this is not a quick process and can take some time. However it is in the long run a much more viable option as banning the account just gets the person to buy another account, use the same program and continue to bot-farm all over the place. Thus solving/preventing nothing.

There was a huge botting wave and program break just a little while back, and month or so ago. So they are doing something about it.

When it comes to bots, report your suspicions, move on and let blizzard handle it. that is all we can do.

I feel your pain on this one. Fighting bots kinda feels like beating your head against a rock to dig a hole in a mountain. The worst thing tho is we shouldn't even have to bring most bots to Blizzards attention since their servers should be able to do that, I'll explain.

One of the biggest flaws with this game is movement is handled client side. Your WOW client tells the server where you are and the serer say "duh'ok" This is why flying/underground/speed hacks are used so much, since it's easy. The server knows where the bots are tho which is the problem i have.

The server tells my client that an underground miner is underground, and so they show up underground with barely the nameplate sticking up. Why do i have to report this person since the server KNOWS they're where players can't be, this should be auto flagged.

The same thing with ones that drop from the sky, mine/herb then fly off mountless to the next node at super sonic speeds. The server knows you can't fly mountless and you can't move from one side of twilight highlands to the other in 4s.... this should auto flag.

Clottibby, it sounds like you are making some very large assumptions in regards to what you think the server knows. From my understanding, the exploit being used only works because the data being sent to the server is being exploited in such a way that the server does not know that you are not supposed to be where you are. It would actually stand to reason that if the server knew this we would not have a single issue today with terrain exploits.

One of the biggest flaws with this game is movement is handled client side.

It is not a flaw. It is a design choice. You must have never played a game where the server handles character position. There is a very bad side effect called rubber-banding. Imaging being at one end of a zone, flying all the way across it, and then the server snaps you back to where you began. The server did not think you were moving but the client reflected that you were. Then the server finally sends correct position data and you rubber-band back.

05/10/2011 09:40 AMPosted by Clottibby

The server knows where the bots are tho which is the problem i have.

No, it does not. If Blizzard were so confident that it could identify bots in such a manner, they would. The problem is that many, many people who are actively at their computers actively farming in a very repetitious manner can be caught up in "blanket bot identification" that you think is possible.

Too many people think that Blizzard is just apathetic to botting. The fact is, they are not, they probably hate it more than anyone else. The solutions are just not as easy to implement as they are to think up. The human brain is much more sophisticated in identifying human behavior versus a bot program and in this day and age too many people who go to the movies think that current technology is at the same level of the human brain. It is not. Identifying bots without human evaluation is a very daunting task.

BOYCOTT GOLD SPAMMERS!!!!.....I mean so what if you dont have the gold to have the BEST stuff actually play the game and have fun or leave. Those of you paying for gold outside of Blizzard are just as guilty as the criminals hacking accounts for you to buy the gold. Thats right they hack accounts farm the gold and sell it to YOU. Otherwise the hackers have nothing to do in here.

The current level of programming is still GIGO.
The program won't know anything unless you tell it how/when/where/what to know...

Unless Skynet is more active than I understand it to be?

05/10/2011 09:48 AMPosted by Wichasha

Clottibby, it sounds like you are making some very large assumptions in regards to what you think the server knows.

No actually I'm stating exactly what Blizzard employees have said here before. Your client tells the server where in the world your toon is and the server accepts that without question. This is how these exploits work. They use programs that tell the server that their position is under ground, floating, "running" thru the sky like superman...etc. When you see somebody doing these things it's because the server is telling your client to show them there. No bounds checks or checks of any kind are done which is the flaw I refer to.

05/10/2011 10:10 AMPosted by Maul

No, it does not.

It knows where you are but it doesn't check to see if you should be there.

05/10/2011 11:08 AMPosted by Clottibby

Clottibby, it sounds like you are making some very large assumptions in regards to what you think the server knows.

No actually I'm stating exactly what Blizzard employees have said here before. Your client tells the server where in the world your toon is and the server accepts that without question. This is how these exploits work. They use programs that tell the server that their position is under ground, floating, "running" thru the sky like superman...etc. When you see somebody doing these things it's because the server is telling your client to show them there. No bounds checks or checks of any kind are done which is the flaw I refer to.

No, it does not.

It knows where you are but it doesn't check to see if you should be there.

I am well aware of how the communication happens between the client and the server. And you are correct, Blizzard has detailed this themselves. However, at no time have they confirmed that the server is aware of when someone is not where they should be in regards to the game axis. That is the nature of the exploit. It is fooling the server to make it believe you are in a valid location.

It does seem, however, that the rate at which the bot programs are handled is far too slow. I'm sure that the bot program devs can write code for 5 new botting programs, in the time that it takes Bliz to drop the ban hammer on just one. Just sayin'

05/10/2011 01:39 PMPosted by Haytore

It does seem, however, that the rate at which the bot programs are handled is far too slow. I'm sure that the bot program devs can write code for 5 new botting programs, in the time that it takes Bliz to drop the ban hammer on just one. Just sayin'

Aye
I can reload a paintball gun much faster than someone can wash the paint out of their shirt, too.

05/10/2011 01:39 PMPosted by Haytore

It does seem, however, that the rate at which the bot programs are handled is far too slow. I'm sure that the bot program devs can write code for 5 new botting programs, in the time that it takes Bliz to drop the ban hammer on just one. Just sayin'

Yes, it is naturally a reactive system.

Writing a simple program from the ground up, programmed to do one very specific thing, will ALWAYS be easier than writing a solution to a certain program and integrate into the current code with few issues.

For example, remember the floating dead body spam you would see in Org or SW, spelling out a bad website? It was easy to break...by disabling movement for all characters. Unfortunately, that wouldn't have been very nice to do to all legitimate players, so it took a little MORE time to write a solution that would benefit the good guys and smack down the bad guys.

05/10/2011 09:40 AMPosted by Clottibby

The server tells my client that an underground miner is underground, and so they show up underground with barely the nameplate sticking up. Why do i have to report this person since the server KNOWS they're where players can't be, this should be auto flagged.

If it was that simple....Blizzard would do exactly that.

05/10/2011 01:39 PMPosted by Haytore

It does seem, however, that the rate at which the bot programs are handled is far too slow. I'm sure that the bot program devs can write code for 5 new botting programs, in the time that it takes Bliz to drop the ban hammer on just one. Just sayin'

They also can fix those same program that were detected, change the program enough, so its hidden again.

Yea manually reporting a botter and talking to a GM sometimes 24 hours later really isnt doing very much to help with the problem. How about making authenticators a requirement or something to the same concept. I know thats its only a band-aid to the problem as a whole but its better than nothing. Also trial accounts seems to be the root of all these level 1 characters spamming in trade about selling gold and sending random whispers to the player base. Its a free unlimited supply for access to the player base by this method. There are many ways to fix this problem but unfortunatly the only way is for players to stop buying gold in the first place.

05/10/2011 03:01 PMPosted by Morandane

There are many ways to fix this problem

No, there's only one way, and you listed it: Everyone stops buying gold, powerleveling, etc.

Since that is not realistic, we have to be diligent in our reporting. Authenticators are not "Band-Aids", but they are not bulletproof vests, either. As backwards as this sounds, the reason they are so effective is because there are so many people who don't use them.

They think they are invincible, so it's much easier to harvest those accounts (or simply ask for the information; people are more than willing to give it), rather than try to take down Authenticators. If everyone was REQUIRED to have one, then hackers would be forced to try to take them on.

But anyway, there are still people who choose to disobey the rules, in every aspect. Sure, they'll put a "required" Authenticator on their account, but still hack. They use a players' complacency, or belief that nothing is done about it, to continue to break the rules. Your reports are investigated, and Blizzard works tirelessly to combat hackers.

Unfortunately, it's only reactive. Someone has to write the program, and deploy it before Blizzard can react to it. They cannot know what the hacker is going to do, before he does it.

EDIT: Wow, "investigated" can go HORRIBLY wrong by mistyping just one letter...

05/10/2011 03:01 PMPosted by Morandane

Yea manually reporting a botter and talking to a GM sometimes 24 hours later really isnt doing very much to help with the problem.

But it is helping. Do not dismiss the good you are doing by claiming it doesen't solve everything.
That's called the Nirvana Fallacy.

How about making authenticators a requirement or something to the same concept.

Limited supply for the physical ones. Limited supporting platforms for the mobile ones.

I know thats its only a band-aid to the problem as a whole but its better than nothing.

Not a bad suggestions, but it's not been feasible so far.

Also trial accounts seems to be the root of all these level 1 characters spamming in trade about selling gold and sending random whispers to the player base. Its a free unlimited supply for access to the player base by this method.

Trial accounts cannot speak in public channels and can only reply to whispers.
The level ones you hear/see usually come from hacked accounts or legitimate accounts paid for by stolen credit cards.

There are many ways to fix this problem but unfortunatly the only way is for players to stop buying gold in the first place.

I agree. But peoples is peoples. Some folks will always take the easy path.

The problem is legion and the solutions are less so.

Any constructive suggestions you have should be posted in the most appropriate forum for that suggestion.

Or you can try to get a job with Blizzard and help directly... (this is not sarcasm)

Or you can try to get a job with Blizzard and help directly... (this is not sarcasm)

I just had a vision of someone getting hired at Blizzard, arriving at their first Development meeting, and saying, "I think we should consider stopping the hackers who mine underground in Twilight Highlands".

The faces of the other people would be priceless.

Sorry for the off-topic.