Holy Paladin Healing on 4.2 after nerfs.

90 Pandaren Shaman
8455


A little disingenuous to list naked and talentless. It's a little more than just Walk In the Light vs. Purification. GHW point for point hits harder than Divine Light for less mana cost (taking talents into consideration), and their Mastery just makes it better when you need it. This is the type of spin I'd expect to see on cable news.

On top of all the other synergies that Shaman provide if they decide to tank heal, namely -10% physical damage reduction, mana back and smart splash heal on crits, bonus healing on the shielded target, and group splash heals possible during damage lulls. Beacon is basically a poor man's Chain Heal with 2 alternate jump targets that never change.



Well you're being disingenuous by ignoring encounter design. If Blizzard makes every fight in Firelands a single Tank affair then I'd be with you. As long as there's two Tanks taking damage and Pally's have Beacon and the PotI Beacon xfer Pally's will be better Tank healers than any other class.

Yes....any spec can capably heal a single Tank. Some have an easier time than others because of how we regen mana and/or the rest of the toolbox. Beacon just makes Pally's better when you have two Tanks.....which is just about every Raid encounter.
However, after all those, pally big heal is still the biggest little big heal on the block. But congrats to shaman for breaking into five digits!
Edited by Indyana on 5/12/2011 9:11 AM PDT
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
Guess what? If Blizzard feels those numbers need to be adjusted they'll be adjusted. This isn't tit for tat. That's not the way balance works. Do you really think the patch notes are done or that we're seeing the final iteration of things?

Maybe we'll finally see some real AoE buffs for Pally's now that single target healing is being adjusted. Who knows?


Were you singing this same tune when Shamans were doing so bad and it took months to fix them?

Paladins are currently tied for last based on average parses. I don't think being last justifies a nerf.


Singing what tune? We were drastically behind on EVERY encounter. All our heals were pathetically weak and we had obnoxious Pally's saying we were balanced around Mana Tide which let the "real" healers do the heavy lifting. Shammies were also posting based on our experiences in actual encounters not off of feelings based on Patch notes for encounters no one has seen yet.

Read my post. I never say I think the mana change is justified. I posted here to once again point out that Shammies didn't magically just get Illumination and that QQ based on limited patch notes and no experience in the new encounters is bad.
Edited by Indyana on 5/12/2011 9:19 AM PDT
85 Troll Priest
3895
05/11/2011 03:30 PMPosted by Cruisecho
When we heal on top of the beacon we effectively loose 50% of our healing throughput


Beacon is a 50% transfer so wouldnt it be a 25% loss of healing throughput?
85 Human Paladin
5775
we are like the terran Bunker in SC2. No matter what happens or fix need be done, they just buff/nerf the bunker
85 Blood Elf Paladin
11325
05/12/2011 09:26 AMPosted by Uneedhealz
When we heal on top of the beacon we effectively loose 50% of our healing throughput


Beacon is a 50% transfer so wouldnt it be a 25% loss of healing throughput?


10K heal, 5K through beacon. 15K healing.

10K on beacon target. 10K healing.

5K loss out of 15K healing = 33% less throughput by healing Beacon instead of someone else. Assumes no overheal, doesn't account for Mastery which doesn't pass through Beacon.
85 Troll Priest
3895
05/12/2011 09:32 AMPosted by Lockslyn
33% less throughput


=/= 50% is what im getting at

Sry for posting on my priest il get my pally out xD
85 Blood Elf Paladin
11325
05/12/2011 09:36 AMPosted by Uneedhealz
33% less throughput


=/= 50% is what im getting at

Sry for posting on my priest il get my pally out xD


Yeah, was just trying to show the actual number.

People say 50% loss because Beacon literally is a 50% boost, and so not getting a beacon transfer is a 50% loss, right? Well, no, since healing the non-beacon is the standard method of healing.
85 Human Paladin
5915



Beacon is a 50% transfer so wouldnt it be a 25% loss of healing throughput?


10K heal, 5K through beacon. 15K healing.

10K on beacon target. 10K healing.

5K loss out of 15K healing = 33% less throughput by healing Beacon instead of someone else. Assumes no overheal, doesn't account for Mastery which doesn't pass through Beacon.


It's a base 30.8% reduction that inversely scales with Mastery. More Mastery means less of a percentage of potential heal. Both Beacon and Mastery suffer from the same issues, a shotgun approach to healing which leads to higher overheal percentage, so less effective heal. Beacon is the closest thing we have to a HoT, that can only be cast in 1 person and requires that we not be CC'ed or otherwise incapacitated and doing something to initiate a tick.
Edited by Stryhf on 5/12/2011 9:39 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Priest
3400
A little disingenuous to list naked and talentless. It's a little more than just Walk In the Light vs. Purification. GHW point for point hits harder than Divine Light for less mana cost (taking talents into consideration), and their Mastery just makes it better when you need it. This is the type of spin I'd expect to see on cable news.

On top of all the other synergies that Shaman provide if they decide to tank heal, namely -10% physical damage reduction, mana back and smart splash heal on crits, bonus healing on the shielded target, and group splash heals possible during damage lulls. Beacon is basically a poor man's Chain Heal with 2 alternate jump targets that never change.


You're cherry picking.

Shaman get +6% healing, -6% mana. Paladins get +6% healing, +9% haste. Which is better? I guess it depends on what you're trying to prove.

When shaman crit certain spells, they get some splash healing, and some mana back. When you crit certain spells, you get another 3-9% healing, and the ability to cast a divine light in less than a second.

When shamans heal the earth shield, they get 18% more healing. When you heal your beacon, you get holy power to spend on a free heal.

For cooldowns, you get 20% haste 20% crit for 20-30 seconds, shaman get Nature's Swiftness. Not the cool druid nature's swiftness, just the regular old instant GHW nature's swiftness. You get aura mastery, shaman get spirit link For max level talents, you get an AoE, shaman get an HoT.

Shaman get healing rain, you get Holy Radiance. Shaman get chain heal, you get beacon and PoTI. Shaman get totems, you get hands and blessings. Shaman get mail, you get plate.

Shaman get shields. You get ... shields.

Shaman get cool tier pieces, you get a powder blue plate mail leisure suit. That's what you should be complaining about.
85 Human Paladin
5915

You're cherry picking.

Shaman get +6% healing, -6% mana. Paladins get +6% healing, +9% haste. Which is better? I guess it depends on what you're trying to prove.


Shaman get +25% for choosing Resto.
Paladins get +10% for choosing Holy.

If that's cherry picking, then I'm @%*%ing George Washington.

9% base haste, let's not discount all the perks called synergies that come with Shaman / Paladin. We can haste our Divine Light, and Shaman can haste their GHW. From doing what they already do with their low cooldown low HPS spell. Oh you get a tier bonus that'll synergize with that spell come T12.

I didn't include Focused Insight, since it doesn't really apply, nor the chance on proc of Earthliving (which does apply).

Shaman Mastery > Paladin Mastery.

And if you bothered to check the original post it was with regards to the justification that Divine Light should be the most expensive when in actuality Shaman's GHW heals for MORE in practice (not on paper).

Some more math for you.

New 4.2 crits will increase overall healing by 10% if you have 20% crit. From 110% crit to 120%. The mana cost nerfs range from 12.5% - 20%. At current gear levels we're seeing a possible 10% increase with a 12.5% to 20% increase in mana cost. The mana cost outweighs the returns from crit. Paladins are already aligned with Resto Shaman in Heroics where content is pushed (the 2 lowest healers in throughput). And consistent throughput is what Paladins bring to the table right now for 2 tank fights (other classes are superior in single tank fights).

Improvement via crit isn't a change in a vacuum, all healers are gaining this benefit, but Paladins are the only class seeing a net loss.

Here's Blizzard logic for you, they buffed Paladin AE healing by lowing HRad cooldown by 10 seconds. That's their justification for nerfing our tank healing. If Greg Street bothered to post anything of worth on his blog, I #@%% you not that's what he would post for his justification.
Edited by Stryhf on 5/12/2011 11:15 AM PDT
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
05/12/2011 09:46 AMPosted by Chlawl
Singing what tune? We were drastically behind on EVERY encounter. All our heals were pathetically weak and we had obnoxious Pally's saying we were balanced around Mana Tide which let the "real" healers do the heavy lifting.


So now we have shammies saying that we are balanced around our internal, non scaling mana regen that we have to spend around 20% of our GCDs for. Same difference. Nice progression by the way, clearly experienced in heroics.


Really? How about quote the rest of my post...

I never say I think the mana change is justified. I posted here to once again point out that Shammies didn't magically just get Illumination and that QQ based on limited patch notes and no experience in the new encounters is bad.


How you leapt to that conclusion is beyond me....and I'll ignore your immature rebuttal.
Edited by Indyana on 5/12/2011 11:39 AM PDT
90 Blood Elf Paladin
14560
There is only one obvious thought to the "nerf" we are receiving in patch 4.2.

Holy paladins need to care about mastery. Cataclysm's brought a host of new ideas and changes, and we in the holy paladin community have not embraced this one. Blizzard still hasn't found a way for us to effectively care about it yet.

When the patch hits many paladins will be asking this question,

"If my mana battery is going to dry up, then I guess I will have to get 'double' duty out of it while it lasts." (I know it isn't even close to double duty, turn of phrase, work with me here!)

With the buff to crit and mastery benefiting from crit. How can we not attempt to use mastery? While I agree, our mastery isn't as useful as could be, even with the changes, I really see no other way to cope with this incoming cost to our spells.
85 Tauren Paladin
1450
Quick observation:

Paladin healers are the only healers who I come across in heroic instances with immobile mana bars. When I heal as a Pally, I just plain cannot run out of mana.

If we're honest with ourselves, we have had it way to easy with mana through out this xpac. This adjustment is the right thing for blizz to do, and is actually the fair thing for blizz to do. Personally, I applaud them for doing what they are to bring balance to the game.
90 Human Warrior
10380
Quick observation:

Paladin healers are the only healers who I come across in heroic instances with immobile mana bars. When I heal as a Pally, I just plain cannot run out of mana.

If we're honest with ourselves, we have had it way to easy with mana through out this xpac. This adjustment is the right thing for blizz to do, and is actually the fair thing for blizz to do. Personally, I applaud them for doing what they are to bring balance to the game.


Quick observation:
It's incredibly easy to outgear heroic 5 man instances. It's not as easy to outgear content that is meant to actually challenge players such as heroic raids.

If we are honest with ourselves, we'd reroll.
90 Blood Elf Priest
6345
With the buff to crit and mastery benefiting from crit. How can we not attempt to use mastery? While I agree, our mastery isn't as useful as could be, even with the changes, I really see no other way to cope with this incoming cost to our spells.


And Paladin throughput will drop accordingly, since Mastery provides significantly less throughput than Haste, while only providing a small boost to HPM.

If that's the goal, then it's a really bad way to go about doing it.
90 Dwarf Paladin
16555
05/12/2011 02:27 PMPosted by Deveo
With the buff to crit and mastery benefiting from crit. How can we not attempt to use mastery? While I agree, our mastery isn't as useful as could be, even with the changes, I really see no other way to cope with this incoming cost to our spells.


And Paladin throughput will drop accordingly, since Mastery provides significantly less throughput than Haste, while only providing a small boost to HPM.

If that's the goal, then it's a really bad way to go about doing it.


Also, according to (S)Ano's quick math (more detailed theorycrafting to come on EJ, I'm sure) Crit at 200% beats Mastery in BOTH HPS and HPM, assuming 35% IH overheal (which seems to be the reasonable expectation).

So... doubly-really bad way to go about doing it.
85 Human Paladin
8805
People who are testing this stuff on the PTR need to stop complaining about the mana problems with t11 gear. These nerfs are suppose to be based around T12 gear not T11.


If this was the case then ALL healer would have the same mana nerfs. This is would be a very unwise decision anyway. It would make it very difficult to gear a new healer who was expected to heal like I was already in T12. I'd get kicked out of every 5 man heroic unless I was T12 plus.


Holy paladins need to care about mastery. Cataclysm's brought a host of new ideas and changes, and we in the holy paladin community have not embraced this one. Blizzard still hasn't found a way for us to effectively care about it yet.


Nerfing us into the ground so that we like our mastery better is akin to slashing my car's tires to get me to walk in the snow. It's not going to get me to walk, it's going to get me to stay home. Just like nerfing us into the ground isn't going to get me to stack mastery, it's going to make me switch my class.


Paladin healers are the only healers who I come across in heroic instances with immobile mana bars. When I heal as a Pally, I just plain cannot run out of mana.


My 346 resto shaman heals 5 mans nearly as well as my 370 AiL Holy paladin with Shard of Woe. The reason is 5 mans are about DL spam, we just can't use our other healing tools effectively with only 4 other spread out people to heal. 5 mans are irrelevant anyway. It's the heroic and normal raid instance I'm concerned with.

Don't hold your breath. As far as I can tell the only response Blizzard has given Holy Paladins since Cata is when they either broke something or got caught slipping in nerfs. It would be nice to have some idea on what is going down.


I think we deserve a blue response. There is little doubt about that. It will be very unfortunate if we continue to be ignored. Our last response which had even less outrage then this current round of nerfs was on Feb 13, 2011. It was a very quick explanation about the LoD beacon transfer "bug". The one before that was Jan 25, 2011. It was at least a small paragraph about one of our nerfs.
Edited by Cruisecho on 5/12/2011 3:04 PM PDT
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]