Holy Paladin Healing on 4.2 after nerfs.

85 Human Paladin
6505
Quick observation:

Paladin healers are the only healers who I come across in heroic instances with immobile mana bars. When I heal as a Pally, I just plain cannot run out of mana.

If we're honest with ourselves, we have had it way to easy with mana through out this xpac. This adjustment is the right thing for blizz to do, and is actually the fair thing for blizz to do. Personally, I applaud them for doing what they are to bring balance to the game.


If you ever make your way to a raid (BH dont count) then you will see mana need to be well managed and CD used to not go OOM!
Changing mana cost to offsett new gear tier only on the pallys dont seem balanced,there might be across the board nerfs coming.
what about the new pally in 333 gear starting H. dungens?
90 Dwarf Paladin
10485
05/12/2011 12:09 AMPosted by Vanelz
People who are testing this stuff on the PTR need to stop complaining about the mana problems with t11 gear. These nerfs are suppose to be based around T12 gear not T11.


So what you are advocating... is that we need to expect to relearn our class every tier because blizz would prefer to balance us around the tier set.. instead of making a tier set a compelling or unique twist on existing game play.

90 Dwarf Paladin
10485
I know it's a game, but the life philosophy of "Life's a <insert vulgar name for a female dog>, then you marry one" can still apply.


Not really, when people stop enjoying the game, blizz loses customers.
90 Dwarf Paladin
10485
05/12/2011 02:15 PMPosted by Terrybull
Paladin healers are the only healers who I come across in heroic instances with immobile mana bars. When I heal as a Pally, I just plain cannot run out of mana.


Are you serious? If you are geared well enough all the original instances should leave mana bars moving very little for all heal classes.

I make it a game on my lesser geared shammy to pop mana totem and use telluric currents to see if I can end the boss fight with 100% mana.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
10285
I've tried to stay interested in the next patch, but with more and more info coming out, just got more bummed.

Every healing spell is upped in mana cost, without even a glimpse into the developers reasoning for this. To top it off, what mana you could get from others (i.e. druids and shammies) gets nerfed.

Healing the beacon target for mana return? Really wish this talent would get removed. It doesn't play well with mastery, and now we're hit with a 50% reduction to healing just to get our mana back. Think I would've rather they nerfed judgements mana return, which already takes talent points to be viable if your not in melee range.

We holy pallies have cried out for a redisgned mastery system, and they finally do it......for druids.

Having water shield for shammies now be illumination is just icing on the cake, considering it was removed from pallies for being to weird/hard to balance around. ( I know they've always had something akin to Illumination, but used to be able to persuade myself that it was still different. Now it is pally illumination in everything but name.)

All these changes have just been too much for me. I've gotten this ole gal up as my main for so long, and while I have a priesty i could fall back on, I just don't want to change mains. Decided I'd join the 600K peeps that went before me, and come June, my subscription is up. I'm just done.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
I have nothing really to add that hasn't already been said, but I just want some type of response. Unless they are going to be redesigning our mastery to make it worth while then there is no justification for these nerfs.
85 Human Paladin
10505
Paladin healing is way way too mana free currently.

I am not sure if the cost needed to be added to divine light, but I'm willing to concede that I'm pretty close to not ever having having worry about mana even when we are doing hardmodes (this is an alt, and it's an alt/casual raid so we often don't have the comp or just plain dps to get through them). it's almost never a factor of me being short mana, and I'm not even geared, and often don't run flasked or with a food buff, and lol at the odds we have full raid buffs with our pro 4 priest/3 dk comp.

paladins have lots of strong mana returns and lots of free heals, LOTS of free healing, as well as cd's to mitigate dmg. I think a bit of a nerf to longevity should be invited so that the strength of either single target or raid healing can be achieved as I am less than impressed with either of those. or hell, a mastery fix
85 Human Paladin
8805
Paladin healing is way way too mana free currently.

I am not sure if the cost needed to be added to divine light, but I'm willing to concede that I'm pretty close to not ever having having worry about mana even when we are doing hardmodes (this is an alt, and it's an alt/casual raid so we often don't have the comp or just plain dps to get through them). it's almost never a factor of me being short mana, and I'm not even geared, and often don't run flasked or with a food buff, and lol at the odds we have full raid buffs with our pro 4 priest/3 dk comp.

paladins have lots of strong mana returns and lots of free heals, LOTS of free healing, as well as cd's to mitigate dmg. I think a bit of a nerf to longevity should be invited so that the strength of either single target or raid healing can be achieved as I am less than impressed with either of those. or hell, a mastery fix


I didn't have any mana issues until about the later heroic modes either, back when holy shock and eternal glory proced WoGs were really good for tank healing. Holy shock is too weak and WoG is too flaky to be used reliably has our bread and butter heals. Once you get into more difficult fights you need to be using more LoDs, divine lights, and cool downs correctly. I also noticed you only have 1 point in Paragon of Virtue. You might want to change that to 2 so you can help out your other raid healers a bit more when it really matters. You are also missing run speed on your boots and don't have any points into Persuit of Justice. Do you use holy radiance as a heal or as a run speed increase?
85 Human Paladin
3280
Look at all the data out there (World of Logs, State of DPS etc.). Each show druids clearly blowing everyone out of the water (esp with their loltranqevery3min buff). Yeah this is a QQ about how OP druids are and I know lolmeterz dont mean everything blah blah blah. But my point is - why nerf one of the least productive classes while buffing (new mastery) the most productive ones..?

You honestly shouldn't focus on logs. Different fights create differing disparities between different classes and roles. It's a shame that they are homogenizing all the healing classes, and it honestly takes the luster from this game, but some classes still have specific roles that they excel at. Comparing HPS between a druid and a paladin is foolish. They serve two vastly different roles in a raid. Plus, as I said earlier, focusing on HPS is dumb especially since a huge percentage of Paladin HPS is overhealing.

Paladins are currently tied for last based on average parses. I don't think being last justifies a nerf.

But we can generally spam for quite a bit longer than any other healing class. Even though we take the 50% debuff from Divine Plea, we can throw an external to mitigate damage for its duration. Admittedly, so can other healers (except the "zomg too op raid healing druids").

05/12/2011 09:46 AMPosted by Chlawl
So now we have shammies saying that we are balanced around our internal, non scaling mana regen that we have to spend around 20% of our GCDs for. Same difference. Nice progression by the way, clearly experienced in heroics.

Something I mentioned earlier, regarding how we'd scale with Intellect and Spirit on gear in T12 and higher content. If our mana costs were left untouched, we'd eventually reach a point where we'd only spend 1 GCD every minute on judging. We'd not even need that pathetic amount of mana (yes, I agree it's pathetic, especially once we get larger and larger mana pools) but would judge purely for the Judgements of the Pure buff.

Also, that's very low to mention a character's progression. One reason being: he could be posting on an alt for all you know. And another being: Just as easily as you can say, "lulz, you haven't killed Omnotron, scrub!" to someone, I can say to you, "only one HM Nef kill, noob?" Which can then be followed by someone responding to me with "Only one HM Cho'gall kill? PFFT!" Very faux pas.

05/12/2011 03:33 PMPosted by Olafson
So what you are advocating... is that we need to expect to relearn our class every tier because blizz would prefer to balance us around the tier set.. instead of making a tier set a compelling or unique twist on existing game play.

When there's not much damage going out and almost every healer is jsut spamming their medium heals on the tanks to fill globals... How is this exactly a drastic enough change to have to "relearn our class"? It's what I do when our raid is in the safe zone and other healers are topping off the last 10-20% of the raid's HP.

05/12/2011 03:42 PMPosted by Olafson
Not really, when people stop enjoying the game, blizz loses customers.

Who will more than likely flock back to Blizzard when they release their next huge hit.

05/12/2011 06:39 AMPosted by Crysth
jsut wanting to cry martyr

"Oh! Poor me!"

This is starting to be all I see in this thread. And though I expected as much, it's still depressing.
5 Draenei Shaman
0
Paladin healing is way way too mana free currently.


I suppose the Priest that outheals you on your parses should also be seeing a heavy nerf as well right?
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-76mc5km2oecdv9rr/sum/healingDone/

I mean your mana is overflowing like Manna from Heaven so you dos heal all the easy fights amirite?

OHAI! I'm an alt that has hard modes under my belt, but I don't actually play the class I'm criticizing so, like, nerf this other class that I'm an expert on. Nice try, Princess.

Am I doing this right?

I checked your hyperbole. It's not kosher and doesn't pass the smell test.
Edited by Zephira on 5/12/2011 6:25 PM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
11145
05/12/2011 09:18 AMPosted by Indyana
All our heals were pathetically weak and we had obnoxious Pally's saying we were balanced around Mana Tide which let the "real" healers do the heavy lifting.


Uhhh it was a priest, i remember those threads pretty well mate. Stop blaming Paladins.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
8685
05/12/2011 03:33 PMPosted by Olafson
People who are testing this stuff on the PTR need to stop complaining about the mana problems with t11 gear. These nerfs are suppose to be based around T12 gear not T11.


So what you are advocating... is that we need to expect to relearn our class every tier because blizz would prefer to balance us around the tier set.. instead of making a tier set a compelling or unique twist on existing game play.


I'm pretty sure some small mana changes are not gonna change the play style of our class.
85 Human Paladin
8805



So what you are advocating... is that we need to expect to relearn our class every tier because blizz would prefer to balance us around the tier set.. instead of making a tier set a compelling or unique twist on existing game play.


I'm pretty sure some small mana changes are not gonna change the play style of our class.


You think a 17% mana increase is small?

Could you not feel the huge difference the small mana changes from 4.0.6 to 4.1 made? Did you not notice how much more fun paladin healing became from 4.0.6 to 4.1? The changes proposed for 4.2 are not fun. Doing everything correctly and still running out of mana before any other class is not fun. It was no where near perfect, but 4.1 made things much better for holy paladins.
Edited by Cruisecho on 5/12/2011 7:06 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Shaman
8455
05/12/2011 06:36 PMPosted by Josémourinho
All our heals were pathetically weak and we had obnoxious Pally's saying we were balanced around Mana Tide which let the "real" healers do the heavy lifting.


Uhhh it was a priest, i remember those threads pretty well mate. Stop blaming Paladins.


Meh...There was one Pally in particular.....but I'm sure there was a Priest as well.

85 Blood Elf Paladin
11145
05/12/2011 06:57 PMPosted by Cruisecho
I'm pretty sure some small mana changes are not gonna change the play style of our class.


I guess you really don't pay attention your mana or the mana tide and innervate nerfs.

05/12/2011 07:37 PMPosted by Indyana
Meh...There was one Pally in particular.....but I'm sure there was a Priest as well.


Then why blame the class?
Edited by Josémourinho on 5/12/2011 7:42 PM PDT
85 Human Paladin
8805
05/12/2011 07:38 PMPosted by Josémourinho
I'm pretty sure some small mana changes are not gonna change the play style of our class.


I guess you really don't pay attention your mana or the mana tide and innervate nerfs.

Meh...There was one Pally in particular.....but I'm sure there was a Priest as well.


Then why blame the class?


I didn't say that! Vanelz did!

:P

I don't think it's possible to go 13/13 without watching your mana bar.
Community Manager
We increased paladin mana costs because they were too efficient at healing. In raid encounters, for instance, paladins were sitting at 40% of their mana while the other healers were flat out of mana. Paladins were casting Divine Light as their main heal because they didn’t need the efficiency of Holy Light. You personally may not have been in that situation, but when looking at the overall picture, as well as running plenty of tests, this was our conclusion overall. It is entirely possible this will hurt Holy paladins in PvP, where mana can be harder to come by. It is our hope that the recent Speed of Light change as well as another change or two coming will help offset that.

We did not make these mana cost changes because of the change to critical heals or because of any upcoming set bonuses (which are still being designed, by the way). We made the changes only because paladins were too efficient compared to druids, priests and shaman.

As a postscript, we see a lot of paladins advocating a strategy of Beacon the tank, heal the off-tank with Divine Light, and never ever do anything else... and if you ever heal the Beacon target, you fail. That’s just not a realistic goal. Stuff is going to happen that is unpredictable, or else you’d probably win every fight. You should make the most of Beacon, absolutely. It’s a great tool. But you shouldn’t consider anything that doesn’t maximize Beacon to be a class design or personal performance failure. Sometimes you’re going to want to heal the Beacon target directly. It happens.
85 Human Paladin
3280
We increased paladin mana costs because they were too efficient at healing. In raid encounters, for instance, paladins were sitting at 40% of their mana while the other healers were flat out of mana. Paladins were casting Divine Light as their main heal because they didn’t need the efficiency of Holy Light. You personally may not have been in that situation, but when looking at the overall picture, as well as running plenty of tests, this was our conclusion overall. It is entirely possible this will hurt Holy paladins in PvP, where mana can be harder to come by. It is our hope that the recent Speed of Light change as well as another change or two coming will help offset that.

We did not make these mana cost changes because of the change to critical heals or because of any upcoming set bonuses (which are still being designed, by the way). We made the changes only because paladins were too efficient compared to druids, priests and shaman.

As a postscript, we see a lot of paladins advocating a strategy of Beacon the tank, heal the off-tank with Divine Light, and never ever do anything else... and if you ever heal the Beacon target, you fail. That’s just not a realistic goal. Stuff is going to happen that is unpredictable, or else you’d probably win every fight. You should make the most of Beacon, absolutely. It’s a great tool. But you shouldn’t consider anything that doesn’t maximize Beacon to be a class design or personal performance failure. Sometimes you’re going to want to heal the Beacon target directly. It happens.

BAM! Only reinforcing some of the things I'd said regarding our longevity while going ballistic.

05/12/2011 07:49 PMPosted by Cruisecho
I don't think it's possible to go 13/13 without watching your mana bar.

I'm 11/13 and don't look at my mana pool. Sinestria and Ascendant council will probably be no different. And without the changes, I'd probably never have to look at it in firelands either.
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