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I think you meant too efficient compared to priests, since druid and shaman also don't use mana.

smh

Beacon is a reason why we don't get nice things :(

05/12/2011 08:07 PMPosted by Zarhym

As a postscript, we see a lot of paladins advocating a strategy of Beacon the tank, heal the off-tank with Divine Light, and never ever do anything else... and if you ever heal the Beacon target, you fail. That’s just not a realistic goal. Stuff is going to happen that is unpredictable, or else you’d probably win every fight. You should make the most of Beacon, absolutely. It’s a great tool. But you shouldn’t consider anything that doesn’t maximize Beacon to be a class design or personal performance failure. Sometimes you’re going to want to heal the Beacon target directly. It happens.

Can you however deny that Healing your Beacon is a waste of potential healing and actual use of the Beacon itself, outside HP generation? Raiders are about maximizing heals. We're going to do what's best. Often times, when two Paladins are in the raid you have them swap Beacons, to maximize the healing done.

In a 25 Man setting, as someone's who's done all of your raids, there are very few reasons (Unless you're using a specific strat for Al'akir/Council) where healing your Beacon of Light is necessary.

Moreover, would you say that "Sometimes you're going to want to heal the Beacon target directly" kind of desensitizes the point of that Target having Beacon in the first place?

I'm not trying to be confrontational. I'm just trying to understand your point, which I don't think comes off clear when you say "It happens." Sometimes a group needs to be healed directly, when a Priest is dead. We're not AOE healers, nor do we have good tools for that, do we just respond with "It happens?"

Outside of that, I would have appreciated your response more (not that I don't), had you targeted all parts of the conversation that we're concerned with. Like Paladin's lack of competitive AOE tools.

Edit: Clarified post, change of words to make it seem less biased.

To be honest in the fireland's testing I have done yeah I noticed the mana difference but i didnt feel that much further behind. Im excited to see theese changes that are going to be made but really this mana change isn't huge.

With another tier of gear it is just going to be like reverting that 10% revertion nerf. What I like most about this is it helps with holy shock being viable again. In this tier of content if this change didnt go through we woulden't be shocking that incredibly much it wouldent be very signifigant. I do think however the least that could be done is make Seal of Insight scale. 15% of base mana is alright but considering we are useing a Melee global (Always 1.5 seconds) to gain the same mana will just be an issue. In current gear I have 120k mana (give or take a few thousand) to get the same amount of mana at this gear level it would be as simple as changeing Seal of Insight to restore 3% max mana every time we judge.

But the thing is, paladins are *potentially* the most efficient. That doesn't necessarily carry over to reality, where you may be so desperate for GCDs that you can't judge for mana or lean on Holy Power or you have to Cleanse a lot, and that potential goes out the window.

I'm also extremely concerned that this change is going to be disproportionally hard on people progressing from normal mode T11 to normal mode Firelands. Not all of us will be heading out there in 372s.

Great....

We're expected to do better in pvp after all these nerfs.

As our "Buffs" we get a little more movement speed while under DP..

...

Glad my priest hit 83...Just 2 more levels and I can start gearing him and leave this...thing..

It's nice to see the player community waiting to see what the end picture is going to look like instead of jumping the gun and completely freaking out over the first proposed changes of a new PTR build.

Oh... wait

Ironic coming from a shaman.
Every class does this, don't act like your class doesn't do it.
Most of these ptr nerfs come through for Paladins and its fairly annoying when we don't get told why and other classes are like YEAH YOU WERE OP when it doesn't look like it.

05/12/2011 08:35 PMPosted by Josémourinho

Ironic coming from a shaman.

Yeah shaman QQ was all over the forums when our performance on live realms was glaringly poor in comparison to the other healing classes.

One thing I will whole-heartedly agree with, especially since druid mastery is getting some attention, is that holy Paladin mastery is abysmal and needs to either be reworked or scrapped.

Fail



Agree with the OP

Yeah shaman QQ was all over the forums when our performance on live realms was glaringly poor in comparison to the other healing classes.

And the lack of buffs on the PTR?

We increased paladin mana costs because they were too efficient at healing. In raid encounters, for instance, paladins were sitting at 40% of their mana while the other healers were flat out of mana. Paladins were casting Divine Light as their main heal because they didn’t need the efficiency of Holy Light. You personally may not have been in that situation, but when looking at the overall picture, as well as running plenty of tests, this was our conclusion overall. It is entirely possible this will hurt Holy paladins in PvP, where mana can be harder to come by. It is our hope that the recent Speed of Light change as well as another change or two coming will help offset that.

We did not make these mana cost changes because of the change to critical heals or because of any upcoming set bonuses (which are still being designed, by the way). We made the changes only because paladins were too efficient compared to druids, priests and shaman.

As a postscript, we see a lot of paladins advocating a strategy of Beacon the tank, heal the off-tank with Divine Light, and never ever do anything else... and if you ever heal the Beacon target, you fail. That’s just not a realistic goal. Stuff is going to happen that is unpredictable, or else you’d probably win every fight. You should make the most of Beacon, absolutely. It’s a great tool. But you shouldn’t consider anything that doesn’t maximize Beacon to be a class design or personal performance failure. Sometimes you’re going to want to heal the Beacon target directly. It happens.

Fail Zarhym



Agree with the OP

05/12/2011 08:07 PMPosted by Zarhym

As a postscript, we see a lot of paladins advocating a strategy of Beacon the tank, heal the off-tank with Divine Light, and never ever do anything else... and if you ever heal the Beacon target, you fail. That’s just not a realistic goal. Stuff is going to happen that is unpredictable, or else you’d probably win every fight. You should make the most of Beacon, absolutely. It’s a great tool. But you shouldn’t consider anything that doesn’t maximize Beacon to be a class design or personal performance failure. Sometimes you’re going to want to heal the Beacon target directly. It happens.

Can we just get rid of Beacon already? What's the point of having it if you're expecting us to heal on top of it? It was a crutch you gave us in WotLK that ended up making us overpowered. Now it's the only thing that stands between us and being balanced.

It's a terrible, awful mechanic. It's not compelling. It forces us into a pure tank healing niche. And you don't even know how to balance it properly with our other abilities. It still blows my mind that anyone could think the Light of Dawn -> Beacon transfer is anything but poor design.

Kill Beacon, give us back an equivalent to the old Sacred Shield, and bring our AoE heals in line with the other healers. I'm tired of Beacon of Light being the only reason we can't be properly balanced when it's not even a fun mechanic at all.

We increased paladin mana costs because they were too efficient at healing. In raid encounters, for instance, paladins were sitting at 40% of their mana while the other healers were flat out of mana. Paladins were casting Divine Light as their main heal because they didn’t need the efficiency of Holy Light. You personally may not have been in that situation, but when looking at the overall picture, as well as running plenty of tests, this was our conclusion overall. It is entirely possible this will hurt Holy paladins in PvP, where mana can be harder to come by. It is our hope that the recent Speed of Light change as well as another change or two coming will help offset that.

We did not make these mana cost changes because of the change to critical heals or because of any upcoming set bonuses (which are still being designed, by the way). We made the changes only because paladins were too efficient compared to druids, priests and shaman.

As a postscript, we see a lot of paladins advocating a strategy of Beacon the tank, heal the off-tank with Divine Light, and never ever do anything else... and if you ever heal the Beacon target, you fail. That’s just not a realistic goal. Stuff is going to happen that is unpredictable, or else you’d probably win every fight. You should make the most of Beacon, absolutely. It’s a great tool. But you shouldn’t consider anything that doesn’t maximize Beacon to be a class design or personal performance failure. Sometimes you’re going to want to heal the Beacon target directly. It happens.

I agree that the play style was against the intent of this expansion. However, we were just barely keeping up with other healers even while doing that.

I'm concerned about paladins strength relative to the other healing classes in 4.2

05/12/2011 08:46 PMPosted by Josémourinho

And the lack of buffs on the PTR?

I simply believe its too soon to assume that the changes announced are going to go through exactly as currently implemented with no attention to Holy Pallies' weak standing in PvP, especially since Zarhym has not-so-subtly alluded to incoming Pally PvP buffs in this very post.

05/12/2011 08:22 PMPosted by Pelinal

To be honest in the fireland's testing I have done yeah I noticed the mana difference but i didnt feel that much further behind. Im excited to see theese changes that are going to be made but really this mana change isn't huge.

Oh look, someone actually healed with the changes implemented on the PTR and it didn't break the class.

Again, I feel that its far too soon in this PTR's implementation to assume you are going to be left out to dry.

Can we just get rid of Beacon already? What's the point of having it if you're expecting us to heal on top of it? It was a crutch you gave us in WotLK that ended up making us overpowered. Now it's the only thing that stands between us and being balanced.

It's a terrible, awful mechanic. It's not compelling. It forces us into a pure tank healing niche. And you don't even know how to balance it properly with our other abilities. It still blows my mind that anyone could think the Light of Dawn -> Beacon transfer is anything but poor design.

Kill Beacon, give us back an equivalent to the old Sacred Shield, and bring our AoE heals in line with the other healers. I'm tired of Beacon of Light being the only reason we can't be properly balanced when it's not even a fun mechanic at all.

I think this is a very well worded and concise point on the state of Beacon of Light right now.. upvoted