[PvE] Frost Mage Guide - 4.1

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90 Gnome Mage
12905
<- did 23k on zanzil as Frost, with no points in ignite; and running with glyped Frost armor. and no, was not using the frost pot.

if anything, just my opinion:

1, i dislike the idea of Frost 'needing' ignite. ignite is more of a 'fire' based element. i do like more dps, but being 'forced' to spent 8 points for ignite just felt like WoTLK's Torment of the Weak. there's got to be a better way

2, Frostfire Orb talent could use a rework. the primary effect is fine, but the secondary effect is largely useless - espeacially since we almost 100% took up glyph of Frostfire.

3, being the only 35 yard mage spec sucks. espeacially all the other spells like FFB, ice lance are all 40 yards. just put a 5 yard bonus on frostbolt in a deep frost talent - a huge improvement of life for frost mages.

4, i would like the idea of having frost mages stick to frost armor as their armor of choice - but i guess thats gonna be alot of work/rebalancing to do


1. What else are you going to take instead of ignite, nothing else really increases your single target dps other than that.

2. Some talents benefit both pve and pvp in the same talent, whoa what a concept.

3. Yeah this does kinda suck, But I don't feel like 5 yards is really that big of a deal, its just the next line on a football field

4. That would be nice, but I don't see it happening.
100 Draenei Mage
9120

1. What else are you going to take instead of ignite, nothing else really increases your single target dps other than that.

2. Some talents benefit both pve and pvp in the same talent, whoa what a concept.

3. Yeah this does kinda suck, But I don't feel like 5 yards is really that big of a deal, its just the next line on a football field

4. That would be nice, but I don't see it happening.


1, i suppose arcane concentration might be a good choice. but the main thing is: there's got to be some other way to improve frost dps without 'forcing' the need for ignite. like i said earlier, its like back in LK where everyone must get Torment of the Weak in arcane coz 'its simply too good to pass'.

2, true - but honestly, name one replacement glyph for FFB as a frost pvp. the spell itself hardly see any action in pvp/pve other than a brain freeze proc - which almost certainly being paired with FoF. if anything, frost mages dont use it for the freeze effect, but for damage itself.

3, like i said - its a quality of life improvement for frost mages. its not a big deal, but it is still a thorn that keeps poking time to time, reminding you that it is still, around.

4, well, its my suggestion/hope. but for now, i guess swapping between molten/mage armor is the way to go for frost pve. currently conducting my own test by running with glyphed frost armor for pve/heroics. not looking for a new way to top the charts, but just trying to find something that i might enjoy running with.
100 Human Mage
14550
08/01/2011 11:15 AMPosted by Kayabao
4, well, its my suggestion/hope. but for now, i guess swapping between molten/mage armor is the way to go for frost pve. currently conducting my own test by running with glyphed frost armor for pve/heroics. not looking for a new way to top the charts, but just trying to find something that i might enjoy running with.


Unglyphed mage armor will do everything in PvE that a glyphed frost armor does except waste a glyph spot.
90 Undead Mage
8125
Frost's aoe is ineffective. It consists of blizzard spam with occasional trinketed BFFFBs interspersed throughout, mana willing. The damage output is nowhere near spriests and hunters. I've been wondering if there was a way to boost it, however. Has anyone given any thought to speccing Impact and spreading a large ignite powered by 2 or 3 fat BFFFBs? You'd basically be giving up 2% haste from NP. Not ideal for single target, but perhaps a cute idea just to compete with mind sear.
2 Human Mage
0
08/01/2011 11:15 AMPosted by Kayabao
2, true - but honestly, name one replacement glyph for FFB as a frost pvp. the spell itself hardly see any action in pvp/pve other than a brain freeze proc - which almost certainly being paired with FoF. if anything, frost mages dont use it for the freeze effect, but for damage itself.


You need to go back and reread the talent descriptions for point 1 and point 2 of FFO. The first talent point only changes it to a Frostfire spell, letting it benefit from 25% Frost damage specialization. The 2nd point is far more important in adding a chill effect to FFO (not just increases FFB's snare %). Without the 2nd point, your FFO's will not be granting you FoF and Brain Freeze procs.

Frost's aoe is ineffective. It consists of blizzard spam with occasional trinketed BFFFBs interspersed throughout, mana willing. The damage output is nowhere near spriests and hunters. I've been wondering if there was a way to boost it, however. Has anyone given any thought to speccing Impact and spreading a large ignite powered by 2 or 3 fat BFFFBs? You'd basically be giving up 2% haste from NP. Not ideal for single target, but perhaps a cute idea just to compete with mind sear.


I am really at a loss and frustrated with Blizzard's seemingly random handling of AoE potential across classes. Why does a Frost DK's Howling Blast hit for ridiculous AoE AND is part of their single target rotation as well, while Cone of Cold requires us to get in melee and still sucks? How is it that Boomkin have mushrooms critting for 15k each shroom + talented AoE snare (on top of Starfall and Sunfire/Moonfire spam) and Shadow does disgusting AoE channeling one spell into the tank + multidot? Kitty's pull 60k spamming nothing but Swipe, and SV hunters go to town with Multi + Serpent Spread. Then you have the pitiful damage of Blizzard (LOL 3k ticks) and Fan of Knives. They need to get this !@#$ balanced.

/rant
85 Undead Mage
5690

I am really at a loss and frustrated with Blizzard's seemingly random handling of AoE potential across classes. Why does a Frost DK's Howling Blast hit for ridiculous AoE AND is part of their single target rotation as well, while Cone of Cold requires us to get in melee and still sucks? How is it that Boomkin have mushrooms critting for 15k each shroom + talented AoE snare (on top of Starfall and Sunfire/Moonfire spam) and Shadow does disgusting AoE channeling one spell into the tank + multidot? Kitty's pull 60k spamming nothing but Swipe, and SV hunters go to town with Multi + Serpent Spread. Then you have the pitiful damage of Blizzard (LOL 3k ticks) and Fan of Knives. They need to get this !@#$ balanced.
/rant


I'm sort of on the fence about this issue, Blizzard does about 4500 DPS per mob in my gear which is definitely lower than other classes...but it also brings the element of control (if you're specced for Ice Shards which any PvE Frostie should be IMO). Control to the extent where in specific encounters, a tank or an additional DPS to kite/AOE is no longer necessary; which frees them up to do other things and/or the OT can simply go DPS spec.

I make it a personal point to be on ADD duty for any and every encounter that requires it...because no other spec/class can do it better.

Magmaw Parasites(Normal and Heroic) - Everyone can remain on the boss/large add while I solo them.

Conclave(Anshal's Lasher Adds) - Tank/Other DPS just ignore them while I solo them...since they are not on the tank they'll never accidentally be healed by the healing circle Anshal drops on himself.

Al'Akir(Stormlings) - Solo "tank" and DPS these down away from the raid to keep stacks up.

Cho'gall Blood Spawns - Everyone can remain on the boss while I solo them.

Maloriak(Small adds, not oozes) - Let every Abberrations cast go and knock down all 18 in a single green phase since no matter how many are up, they can't touch a Frost Mage. Then I'm free to DPS the boss and the DPS specced "would-have-been" OT has been on him the whole time.

Ryolith(Fragments) - If you run the single tank method, they aren't running all over the place. Others single target DPS the spark while I cluster them up and AOE...then they switch over, toss an AOE and they die in a nice little pile.

Bethilac(Spiderlings) - Solo'ed all day with a snowballs chance in hell of ever getting to a Drone.

Only problem I have with Blizzard in particular is the mana cost. It adds up quick on encounters where needing to cancel your channelling is required frequently.
Edited by Critrocket on 8/1/2011 6:46 PM PDT
93 Blood Elf Mage
8675
I suppose it really just depends. My main is a shadow priest, and I love the damage I do with Mind Sear without even trying. However, in the right situation, my frost mage with worse gear can out DPS her with adds. Last night in ZG on the small add packs before Zanzil, I took advantage of the frost cauldron, and then did Blizzard and pet freeze and did 200k DPS for a few seconds. Once the pack was dead it averaged out to about 50k. Then today in HoO heroic on the troggs, the tank gathered three packs together and I used the same method (minus cauldron of course) and did 40k DPS. I've never done that much DPS on either of those packs with my priest.

That said, I do think Blizzard could use a dmg buff. Situations like I described are few and far between.
2 Human Mage
0

I am really at a loss and frustrated with Blizzard's seemingly random handling of AoE potential across classes. Why does a Frost DK's Howling Blast hit for ridiculous AoE AND is part of their single target rotation as well, while Cone of Cold requires us to get in melee and still sucks? How is it that Boomkin have mushrooms critting for 15k each shroom + talented AoE snare (on top of Starfall and Sunfire/Moonfire spam) and Shadow does disgusting AoE channeling one spell into the tank + multidot? Kitty's pull 60k spamming nothing but Swipe, and SV hunters go to town with Multi + Serpent Spread. Then you have the pitiful damage of Blizzard (LOL 3k ticks) and Fan of Knives. They need to get this !@#$ balanced.
/rant


I'm sort of on the fence about this issue, Blizzard does about 4500 DPS per mob in my gear which is definitely lower than other classes...but it also brings the element of control (if you're specced for Ice Shards which any PvE Frostie should be IMO). Control to the extent where in specific encounters, a tank or an additional DPS to kite/AOE is no longer necessary; which frees them up to do other things and/or the OT can simply go DPS spec.

I make it a personal point to be on ADD duty for any and every encounter that requires it...because no other spec/class can do it better.

Magmaw Parasites(Normal and Heroic) - Everyone can remain on the boss/large add while I solo them.

Conclave(Anshal's Lasher Adds) - Tank/Other DPS just ignore them while I solo them...since they are not on the tank they'll never accidentally be healed by the healing circle Anshal drops on himself.

Al'Akir(Stormlings) - Solo "tank" and DPS these down away from the raid to keep stacks up.

Cho'gall Blood Spawns - Everyone can remain on the boss while I solo them.

Maloriak(Small adds, not oozes) - Let every Abberrations cast go and knock down all 18 in a single green phase since no matter how many are up, they can't touch a Frost Mage. Then I'm free to DPS the boss and the DPS specced "would-have-been" OT has been on him the whole time.

Ryolith(Fragments) - If you run the single tank method, they aren't running all over the place. Others single target DPS the spark while I cluster them up and AOE...then they switch over, toss an AOE and they die in a nice little pile.

Bethilac(Spiderlings) - Solo'ed all day with a snowballs chance in hell of ever getting to a Drone.

Only problem I have with Blizzard in particular is the mana cost. It adds up quick on encounters where needing to cancel your channelling is required frequently.


You're right, control is a big benefit of Frost. But to get that control, you need 2/2 Ice Shards, 3/3 Permafrost, possibly even Imp CoC. That's dropping a lot of Single target talents to pick up. Using Pet Freeze for control may also put it on Cooldown when you need Deep Freeze on the boss. Those other specs I mentioned all deal excellent AoE damage and lose nothing in Single target either.

That being said, Frost mages aren't the only ones with plenty of control tools. Hunter traps + entrapment or multishot daze , DKs with Chillblains and Hungering Cold/Chains spam, Boomkins' Fungal Growth and Typhoon, etc.
85 Undead Mage
5690
You're right, control is a big benefit of Frost. But to get that control, you need 2/2 Ice Shards, 3/3 Permafrost, possibly even Imp CoC. That's dropping a lot of Single target talents to pick up. Using Pet Freeze for control may also put it on Cooldown when you need Deep Freeze on the boss.


Feel free to check my Primary PvE spec, 2/2 Ice shards, 2/2 Imp CoC, 2/3 Permafrost(all that's necessary). Replenishment still has 90% uptime or better at 1/3.

All that utility while sacrificing precisely zero single target DPS talents.

...and what would stop you from throwing your Deep Freeze on the boss everytime you pet freeze other than range limitations? Do that, PF/DF cd's remained aligned. You can also simply hold FoF1 if you know it's coming off CD...nbd.
Edited by Critrocket on 8/1/2011 8:52 PM PDT
100 Goblin Mage
11945
08/01/2011 08:52 PMPosted by Critrocket
You're right, control is a big benefit of Frost. But to get that control, you need 2/2 Ice Shards, 3/3 Permafrost, possibly even Imp CoC. That's dropping a lot of Single target talents to pick up. Using Pet Freeze for control may also put it on Cooldown when you need Deep Freeze on the boss.


Feel free to check my Primary PvE spec, 2/2 Ice shards, 2/2 Imp CoC, 2/3 Permafrost(all that's necessary). Replenishment still has 90% uptime or better at 1/3.

All that utility while sacrificing precisely zero single target DPS talents.

...and what would stop you from throwing your Deep Freeze on the boss everytime you pet freeze other than range limitations? Do that, PF/DF cd's remained aligned. You can also simply hold FoF1 if you know it's coming off CD...nbd.


Early Frost? That's about as single target as it gets, and it's a pretty solid talent. You could also argue that 1/2 Piercing Chill reduces your single target damage in cleave situations. Whatever, I guess it all depends on what role your guild expects of you, but unless I was on adds all the time, I wouldn't give up those dps talents.
85 Undead Mage
5690
Early Frost? That's about as single target as it gets, and it's a pretty solid talent. You could also argue that 1/2 Piercing Chill reduces your single target damage in cleave situations.


420 second fight chain casting Frostbolt

Without Early Frost
233 Frostbolts over 420 seconds

With Early Frost
EF activates 27 times in 420 seconds. 27 x .6 seconds = 16.2 seconds of casting saved

9 extra Frostbolts.

Keep in mind in an ACTUAL raid encounter, that you won't always be casting a Frostbolt exactly at each EF cooldown, reducing the number of effective activations over a given period.

A DPS gain of less than 100 in most cases or loads of extra utility...what would you pick?
Edited by Critrocket on 8/1/2011 10:40 PM PDT
90 Gnome Mage
12905
You realize that EF lets you cast at less than 1 sec GCD right?
85 Undead Mage
5690
08/01/2011 10:11 PMPosted by Gamdwelf
You realize that EF lets you cast at less than 1 sec GCD right?


It appears you're correct. I didn't realize they changed it. Even without my GCD caveat, the talent still works out to around 1% per point. If you want to bring an "all out every last ounce of damage possible" spec to a raid with no utility, just spec Arcane. Why bother bringing Frost spec with very little utility outside of damage? To each his own, neither choice is "wrong". I may even try out an EF build and just take 1 point from Permafrost and 1 from Imp CoC in light of this information...so I guess I should thank you =P
Edited by Critrocket on 8/2/2011 1:10 PM PDT
93 Blood Elf Mage
8675
bump
85 Undead Mage
5690
08/02/2011 12:43 PMPosted by Thelesis
bump


Since Frost is slowly becoming recognized as a viable PvE spec...it's about damn time this thread gets a sticky! Click teh button!
93 Blood Elf Mage
8675
Yeah no kidding. I've been clicking it a lot. :D
100 Tauren Druid
8800
08/01/2011 10:34 PMPosted by Critrocket
Why bother bringing Frost spec with very little utility outside of damage?


Well, on Ragnaros, for instance, extra shields for trap duty (alternate between Mage Ward and Ice Barrier, or even Mana Shield if you feel like it) and Deep Freeze for Intermissions which stuns one add. Arcane can't stun anything. I actually take very little damage in that fight and my damage still rivals the top end.

Thats on top of, while kiting Living Meteors, the Water Elemental is still on Ragnaros the entire time (provided you planted it in the middle like you're supposed to). Arcane can only get even that luxury by getting a wide lead on the Meteor (which is not always possible), so consider it 'free' damage.

Your utility is not limited to what you can do to buff the raid.

08/01/2011 08:37 PMPosted by Incéndiary
You're right, control is a big benefit of Frost. But to get that control, you need 2/2 Ice Shards, 3/3 Permafrost, possibly even Imp CoC.


I don't use Improved CoC as the times when it would be 'necessary' I'm not even in range to use it. Not to mention it helps you even less if you don't manage to hit everything with it.
100 Human Mage
17630
Okay so I'm kinda PO'd about the t12 2set bonus.. It's pretty much like Blizzard felt like not everyone could feel the RNG beatstick that Fire felt.. so they made every spec have to feel it.

Pretty much, the 10% haste from t11 4set is too needed to lose. I've noticed without it, (8.82% haste unbuffed) it takes a day and a half for your Frostbolt to cast. DPS=plummets. Hard.

WTB spirit giving a haste bonus! :D
Edited by Kenpo on 8/3/2011 9:47 AM PDT
Is there any websites for reforging help? Wowreforge.com has me reforging everything into haste for frost which I don't know is correct or not because my crit seems to be low.
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