holy shield in 4.2, help me understand.

100 Blood Elf Paladin
16120
Protection

Holy Shield now increases block chance by 5% while active, instead of increasing the amount of damage blocked by 10%.

why, just why. now we are being punished for stacking mastery?

is there any reason to use a paladin tank over a prot warrior (shield block/critical block), blood dk, or a druid with this change? sure, we have a raid wall: on a 3 min cd and its range has been reduced. without going into the math and how diminishing returns on dodge/parry influences this, prot paladins will be taking roughly 8-12% more damage due to the lessened value per point of mastery.

is this honestly fair? the devs cant really think this is balanced. say i'm qq'ing all you want, but it's the truth. we will be taking more damage than warriors and other tanks with this change.
Edited by Moradìm on 5/15/2011 2:40 AM PDT
90 Draenei Paladin
10210
05/15/2011 02:38 AMPosted by Moradìm
prot paladins will be taking roughly 8-12% more damage due to the lessened value per point of mastery.


Proof?

we will be taking more damage than warriors and other tanks with this change.


Proof?
Edited by Caeless on 5/15/2011 2:46 AM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
05/15/2011 02:45 AMPosted by Caeless
Proof?


http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2522074459

4.2
For a paladin lets break this down further:
miss=5%
dodge=3.98base+10.51% after DR=14.49%/2150 rating including agiliy converted to dodge rating and buffs
parry=5base+10.51%=15.51%/2150 rating including agility converted to dodge rating and buffs

We need:
35+23base block+5%holy shield+X*2.25=102.4
X=17.511mastery/3140rating
total block=67.4%

It takes us 1090 rating less to block cap. Normally this would go into avoidance.

However this would increase the avoidance % making us need mastery even less. I plug the formulas into the spread sheet and find that we actually need is 1619 LESS mastery than warriors to block cap. Moving that into avoidance gives us 13.83% avoidance after DR instead of 10.51 giving us:

dodge:17.81%
parry:18.83%
miss:5%
avoidance:41.64%
mastery rating: 2611/60.76%block

Damage taken:(1-0.4164-0.3*0.6076)*damage=0.40132damage

_______________________________________________________________________
For current

For a paladin:
miss=5%
dodge=3.98base+10.51% after DR=14.49%/2150 rating including agiliy converted to dodge rating and buffs
parry=5base+10.51%=15.51%/2150 rating including agility converted to dodge rating and buffs

We need:
35+23base block+X*2.25=102.4
X=19.733mastery/3538rating
total block=67.4%

It takes us 692 rating less to block cap. Normally this would go into avoidance.

However this would increase the avoidance % making us need mastery even less. I plug the formulas into the spread sheet and find that we actually need is 1050 LESS mastery than warriors to block cap. Moving that into avoidance gives us 12.76% avoidance after DR instead of 10.51 giving us:

dodge:16.74%
parry:17.76%
miss:5%
avoidance:39.5%
mastery rating: 3180/62.91%block

Damage taken:(1-0.395-0.4*0.6291)*damage=0.35336damage


0.40132/0.35336=1.1357256056146705908988000905592

We will be taking 13.57% more damage.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
6235
05/15/2011 02:45 AMPosted by Caeless
Proof?

It's really not that difficult to prove.

Prior to the change:
Warriors block less often than Paladins, but can sometimes critically block. Paladins block more often than Warriors, and the default block is slightly stronger.

After the change:
Warriors block less often than Paladin, but can sometimes critically block. Paladins block more often than Warriors, but Holy Shield letting you block 5% more often instead of blocking harder means you have nothing to counter-balance critical blocks, since for the most part Paladins in progression content already have block chance to spare. Paladins effectively lost 10% block amount for no discernible return nor reason.
85 Gnome Priest
1725
You'll be that much closer to the unhittable cap. Since you won't block as much you can put more points into dodge or parry. Dodge and parry make you easier to heal.

All this change does is get paladins to focus more on dodge and parry. That's a good thing. You talk about dimishing returns, but in reality the most you'll get hit with in DR is instead of taking 179 to = 1%, it'll be at most 182. Even now, if you have 16% dodge or parry instead of 179 it's 179.6. So instead of focusing on blocking, do some dodge and parry and make your healers happy.

While blocking is nice, it doesn't have nearly the value most block tanks think it has. Trust me, I know.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
15060
You'll be that much closer to the unhittable cap. Since you won't block as much you can put more points into dodge or parry. Dodge and parry make you easier to heal.

All this change does is get paladins to focus more on dodge and parry. That's a good thing. You talk about dimishing returns, but in reality the most you'll get hit with in DR is instead of taking 179 to = 1%, it'll be at most 182. Even now, if you have 16% dodge or parry instead of 179 it's 179.6. So instead of focusing on blocking, do some dodge and parry and make your healers happy.

While blocking is nice, it doesn't have nearly the value most block tanks think it has. Trust me, I know.


This is the exact opposite of correct, and I have no idea how you have generated these numbers. Dartboard?
100 Blood Elf Paladin
15365
You'll be that much closer to the unhittable cap. Since you won't block as much you can put more points into dodge or parry. Dodge and parry make you easier to heal.

All this change does is get paladins to focus more on dodge and parry. That's a good thing. You talk about dimishing returns, but in reality the most you'll get hit with in DR is instead of taking 179 to = 1%, it'll be at most 182. Even now, if you have 16% dodge or parry instead of 179 it's 179.6. So instead of focusing on blocking, do some dodge and parry and make your healers happy.

While blocking is nice, it doesn't have nearly the value most block tanks think it has. Trust me, I know.

Let's get some right numbers into the thread, because these are way way off.

The base is 176.7 rating per 1%.

From 500 rating (+2.83% dodge) it takes 188 more rating to get 1% more (+3.83%).
From 1500 rating (+7.82% dodge) it takes 225 more rating to get 1% more (+8.82%).
90 Blood Elf Paladin
6235
05/15/2011 07:20 AMPosted by Fleigmus
All this change does is get paladins to focus more on dodge and parry. That's a good thing

This is absolutely wrong, which pretty much invalidates the rest of your post.
90 Draenei Paladin
10210
This thread is still inaccurate and doesn't look at net damage taken. There are still other factors that need to be considered, such as SoI healing, WoG healing and cooldowns.

It's much too early to to call, and I don't think anyone has done a full look at the packages as a whole since Zarko's numbers in 4.0.3
85 Human Paladin
7460
05/15/2011 04:32 AMPosted by Prinzesa
Paladins effectively lost 10% block amount for no discernible return nor reason.

Oh there's a reason <looks out of one corner of the eyes then another> but if I say it out loud I'll be called a troll....
85 Human Paladin
7460
05/15/2011 07:20 AMPosted by Fleigmus
Since you won't block as much you can put more points into dodge or parry.


Putting more points into dodge and parry will nerf our threat. One of the prot paladins best threat talents procs from blocking....
100 Blood Elf Priest
8730
This thread is still inaccurate and doesn't look at net damage taken. There are still other factors that need to be considered, such as SoI healing, WoG healing and cooldowns.

It's much too early to to call, and I don't think anyone has done a full look at the packages as a whole since Zarko's numbers in 4.0.3


^^ This

We need a new breakdown that takes the whole picture into account instead of people cherry picking stats to further their agendas like a politician. My guess is that they are aiming for making paladins take more damage in exchange for the self healing they get like DKs.

I do not believe this is the best way to do it as it allows Paladins to cap even faster, but probably the intent. A better method would probably have been to reduce it by 5% with no increase to block, but that is all pure speculation.
85 Human Paladin
7460
05/15/2011 11:21 AMPosted by Taihou
My guess is that they are aiming for making paladins take more damage in exchange for the self healing they get like DKs.


Except that DK's don't give up damge from healing they get their healing from the the same ability that does a fair amount of damage.
The issue with DS as I understand it is that the ability needed to keep the debuff up also uses a rune that a DK uses to perform DS.

Paladins either heal or do more damage. This change may force some paladins to use WoG everytime it comes off of cooldown. This is something I didn't think that the devs wanted.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
11320
05/15/2011 10:59 AMPosted by Caeless
There are still other factors that need to be considered, such as SoI healing, WoG healing and cooldowns.


I do not want to become the next DK :(
100 Dwarf Death Knight
14595
Don't worry, it takes a perfect storm of lazy, contradictory, and outdated design to create something as awkward as Blood.

All we can do right now is be patient and see how things fall out, there is always the possibility that this is part of a larger group of changes that we've only seen the cusp of. If we see a release candidate put on the PTR without the other tanks being brought down or Paladin's being buoyed back up elsewhere... well, then we start rabble-rousing.
90 Draenei Paladin
10210
05/15/2011 11:31 AMPosted by Fangthane
Except that DK's don't give up damge from healing they get their healing from the the same ability that does a fair amount of damage.


No established raid tank cares about their DPS, or their threat. Vengeance carries us all the way, and next tier it will continue to do the same. We'll get more strength, we'll get more stamina (translating to attack power for vengeance) and we'll get higher dps weapons. Threat is fine and not a single good prot paladin cares about our threat being "nerfed" by putting more points rating points into dodge/parry.



05/15/2011 12:10 PMPosted by Feanorion
Even WoG'ing on cd, we will still take a LOT more damage than other tanks.


Not True. We currently take less damage than every other tank, even after the WoG nerf thanks to SoI. This will likely put us middle of the pack.




so we will be reforging into dodge/parry more...


No one will be reforging into dodge/parry more. The break even point for dodge/parry and mastery is still very very low, around the 14-15% range. Most 359+ geared tanks are already sitting very close to those numbers and they are completely reforging OUT of dodge/parry as much as possible.

These numbers will be easily achieved incidentally in 4.2, just like the current tiers numbers have been. Players will still be reforing to mastery. The largest difference? You might have 1-2 pieces of dodge/parry gear where you don't reforge one of those stats to mastery, at worst. This is more than completely covered by the 5% block provided by Holy Shield.


No one is saying this isn't a nerf, it is, but it's a nerf to try and bring paladin tanks back in line with the other tanks.
Edited by Caeless on 5/15/2011 1:23 PM PDT
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