holy shield in 4.2, help me understand.

90 Night Elf Druid
17580
And what part of getting screwed over is hard to understand. To put it simply all content will be much harder on our healers, dpsers, etc. if all tanks get nerfed. Paladins can hard cap mastery - awesome. The other tanks cannot so everyone loses (SCREWED OVER) - get it? Especially for the lower level content.


Proof that clueless people can still get high-level gear.

News flash: If they nerf all of the tank classes, they'll also nerf the content as needed. Also, lower-level content is so undertuned you frequently don't even need a real tank for it.


Proof that you're assuming things and that you're an idiot

News Flash: Nefing all tank classes doesn't mean older content will get nerfed. You know what will happen? Firelands will be out and new gear will be used though hey older content will be skipped.

BTW it's cute you talk about my gear - jealousy is awesome. Let me tell you something about clearing things, it requires not being bad, studying your class well, and oh yeah a good team. Seeing by your lack of Nef may I suggest zipping your mouth
Edited by Nightsbane on 5/16/2011 4:45 PM PDT
85 Human Paladin
6435
05/16/2011 04:43 PMPosted by Nightsbane
News Flash: Nefing all tank classes doesn't mean older content will get nerfed. You know what will happen? Firelands will be out and new gear will be used though hey older content will be skipped.


And they don't balance around older content. So don't use that as an argument.
90 Dwarf Death Knight
13725
Wow, this thread went downhill fast.
90 Human Paladin
13020


Except that the change runs 100% diametrically opposed to the explanation. It's akin to the Historic Preservation Society looking at an old building and saying "We set it on fire becaue we wanted to preserve the building for future generations." If the goal is to make it harder to cap mastery, then making it easier to cap mastery does nothing to accomplish that goal. In fact, it hinders that goal.


Again, PTR push in the middle of a set of changes.

Did you know there is a raid and some other stuff in 4.2? They aren't going to necessarily hold up pushing things to the PTR just because they haven't done everything they've wanted to with prot paladins yet.

This is not the first time that changes have been released in parts on a PTR. I mean, its pretty standard really. The blue post here goes just short of having a pop up screen saying that the holy shield nerf isn't the only change planned for prot paladins.


The whatever changes come down the pipe are irrelevant in this context. If your stated goal is to make it harder to cap mastery, and they implement a change that makes it easier to cap mastery, then no matter what other changes get implemented, that change is harmful towards the developers stated goals. There is no other change they could make short of "Having less than 3 HP reduces your chance to block by 5%", and if that's the mitigating circumstance that justifies this change within the context of their stated goals, then all they're accomplishing is cluttering up the server client communication unnecissarily.
90 Night Elf Druid
17580
05/16/2011 04:45 PMPosted by Xayton
News Flash: Nefing all tank classes doesn't mean older content will get nerfed. You know what will happen? Firelands will be out and new gear will be used though hey older content will be skipped.


And they don't balance around older content. So don't use that as an argument.


They sure don't but since it's Cataclysm content (our current tier) it's pretty much not too old though as far as WOTLK, BC, and Vanilla content it's actually easier than it used to be. By the don't use the argument not to use that argument, it's not an argument. Now I'm sure by being "vague" I should have specifically said Blackwing descent, Bastion of Twilight, and Throne of four winds but I decided to leave that to your reasoning.
Community Manager
05/16/2011 03:20 PMPosted by Arcdeek
I'm... rather bewildered as well. Unless there's a complete change to Prot mastery that hasn't been revealed yet this change goes completely against what you said you want it to do.


There are several changes we are trying, and the current PTR only reflects a fraction of them. Keep in mind that while we have a lot of changes we want to get in to every major patch, we also want to try and get builds on the PTR as frequently as possible so that we can test other things (like Firelands encounters). We tend to grab builds often, not necessarily when every single change is in place.
85 Human Paladin
6435



And they don't balance around older content. So don't use that as an argument.


They sure don't but since it's Cataclysm content (our current tier) it's pretty much not too old though as far as WOTLK, BC, and Vanilla content it's actually easier than it used to be. By the don't use the argument not to use that argument, it's not an argument. Now I'm sure by being "vague" I should have specifically said Blackwing descent, Bastion of Twilight, and Throne of four winds but I decided to leave that to your reasoning.


When Firelands comes out, BoT, BWD, and ToFW will be considered old content and they don't balance gear and stats around that content anymore. I don't even know why I am arguing this....
Edited by Xayton on 5/16/2011 4:52 PM PDT
2 Goblin Shaman
0
Nice ad hominem. Very classy. And for the record, I do raid current content, just not successfully. There are reasons for that which I will not rehash here, but although I'm not exactly happy at our lack of real progress, I am ultimately accepting of it as opposed to doing what would be required to progress further.

Hell, why not go further. We have a guy that raids with us. He is almost blind, and will not be able to play much longer. Furthermore, his mother has just been diagnosed with leukemia. I'll kick everyone else and 2-man Halfus with this kid before sitting him out because he isn't the leetest player in the game. He's a great kid, gives us his best, studies the fights, and would do anything anyone in my guild asks.

Although I would kick everyone else, I don't have to. Every single person in my raid loves him and we bring him along every time he's online.

We have some very good, very solid players. But we have a lot more that are not necessarily skilled raiders: and I don't care. They're good people, they're pleasant to spend time with, I consider them my friends.

I have said for years: I value the people I play with more than the content I clear.

So thank you for that classy, insightful little nugget. You must be very proud.

In any case, even if I were a fresh player still plumbing the depths of Wailing Caverns for the first time, my point would remain true.


Ignore Mnemoniq hes/shes nothing but a troll.
85 Human Paladin
6435
05/16/2011 04:49 PMPosted by Kaivax
I'm... rather bewildered as well. Unless there's a complete change to Prot mastery that hasn't been revealed yet this change goes completely against what you said you want it to do.


There are several changes we are trying, and the current PTR only reflects a fraction of them. Keep in mind that while we have a lot of changes we want to get in to every major patch, we also want to try and get builds on the PTR as frequently as possible so that we can test other things (like Firelands encounters). We tend to grab builds often, not necessarily when every single change is in place.


Is there anyway we can get some sort of insight as to what these changes might be, kind of like you guys were doing for T12 bonuses? It will allow for faster feedback from the community.
Edited by Xayton on 5/16/2011 4:57 PM PDT
05/16/2011 04:48 PMPosted by Dämmerung
The whatever changes come down the pipe are irrelevant in this context. If your stated goal is to make it harder to cap mastery, and they implement a change that makes it easier to cap mastery, then no matter what other changes get implemented, that change is harmful towards the developers stated goals. There is no other change they could make short of "Having less than 3 HP reduces your chance to block by 5%", and if that's the mitigating circumstance that justifies this change within the context of their stated goals, then all they're accomplishing is cluttering up the server client communication unnecissarily.


Dev 1: Hey, the Firelands daily stuff is ready and I also got the Holy Shield change done.

Dev 2: Cool, throw it on the ptr so people can test stuff and we can get the raid in.

Dev 1: But I don't have the full mastery change for prot paladins done where we significantly lower block chance and increase block value.

Dev 2: So you are suggesting we hold off on the ptr testing because a change to one class won't make sense for 3 days? Push it. They won't flip their lid.

Dev 1: They are paladins......

Dev 2: Crap, good point.
Edited by Barwicka on 5/16/2011 4:57 PM PDT
90 Human Paladin
12965
05/16/2011 04:41 PMPosted by Dakken
It still seems like a backward change to give you guys more block chance from an ability and then reduce block chance given by mastery.


Not really. It fixes the underlying problem (mastery scaling letting us reach the cap) while ensuring we still have sufficient baseline mitigation.
85 Human Paladin
6435
05/16/2011 04:54 PMPosted by Arielle
So, why did our 3rd CD get neutered exactly?


I am going to take a stab in the dark and say, because it was better then they wanted it to be. Just a thought. Isn't this thread about Holy Shield?
Edited by Xayton on 5/16/2011 4:58 PM PDT
90 Human Paladin
17680
Bar, I like your posts but it's sort of silly to pretend like (1) there's been any real "hysteria" over this (I mean compare this to the WoG change for example) or (2) that this is class-specific. Odd changes made on their own will provoke a response regardless of class, particularly when a blue post follows.

That being said, it'd be nice to at least have an idea of what we're looking at. A mastery change seems definite but "Several" changes implies other stuff too.
Edited by Lesaberisa on 5/16/2011 4:58 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
CFT
10670
So, why did our 3rd CD get neutered exactly?


I am going to take a stab in the dark and say, because it was better then they wanted it to be. Just a thought.

It went from being a slightly better Last Stand to being useful only for the Glyph.

If they can't figure out how to make it not stack with Raidstand that's their problem.

Edit: And if the Glyph was really the problem, why not nerf that?
Edited by Arielle on 5/16/2011 4:59 PM PDT
85 Human Death Knight
11920
05/16/2011 04:55 PMPosted by Xayton
So, why did our 3rd CD get neutered exactly?


I am going to take a stab in the dark and say, because it was better then they wanted it to be. Just a thought.


It wasn't that strong, though.
90 Human Paladin
13020
05/16/2011 04:49 PMPosted by Kaivax
I'm... rather bewildered as well. Unless there's a complete change to Prot mastery that hasn't been revealed yet this change goes completely against what you said you want it to do.


There are several changes we are trying, and the current PTR only reflects a fraction of them. Keep in mind that while we have a lot of changes we want to get in to every major patch, we also want to try and get builds on the PTR as frequently as possible so that we can test other things (like Firelands encounters). We tend to grab builds often, not necessarily when every single change is in place.


I can tell you right now that this current change will not work within the constraints of your stated design goals.

I am curious as to what other sorts of changes you might have to replace this one, especially if they aren't all going to be subjected to even as basic a test as a ptr run.
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