holy shield in 4.2, help me understand.

85 Human Warrior
3600
13.57% less than before. So...still lots or at least enough to do what you are needed to do?
85 Human Paladin
6250
05/15/2011 01:22 PMPosted by Caeless
No one is saying this isn't a nerf, it is, but it's a nerf to try and bring paladin tanks back in line with the other tanks.


the problem prot pal is in line with warrior in 4.1 (with teh WoG / DG nerf).
90 Draenei Paladin
10210
05/15/2011 02:15 PMPosted by Earthquakes
No one is saying this isn't a nerf, it is, but it's a nerf to try and bring paladin tanks back in line with the other tanks.


the problem prot pal is in line with warrior in 4.1 (with teh WoG / DG nerf).


Do you have the numbers to back that up? The only up to date full package analysis i've seen was from Zarko in 4.0.3. I have yet to see anything since. WoG was nerfed, but is still usable, and we still have SoI and more cooldowns available to us than warriors. Please direct me to where Prot Paladin Tanks are proven to be even with Warriors in 4.1
85 Human Paladin
6250



the problem prot pal is in line with warrior in 4.1 (with teh WoG / DG nerf).


Do you have the numbers to back that up? The only up to date full package analysis i've seen was from Zarko in 4.0.3. I have yet to see anything since. WoG was nerfed, but is still usable, and we still have SoI and more cooldowns available to us than warriors. Please direct me to where Prot Paladin Tanks are proven to be even with Warriors in 4.1


Its not hard to figure out. 4.1 .. warrior / prot pal have similar dodge/parry rating and the block it self was something like 1.6% better for pal at 25 mastery.

I doubt that blocking approx 1.6% more damage absorb via block and having similar dodge / parry was a huge problem.

The only problem was spamming WoG and it was fix. If SoI is considered in that nerf, let me tell you I cripple my dps badly and my agro for a very small heal. if SoI is a problem nerf SoI ...


EDIT :
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2522163743?page=14
(post 274)

Its not amazing math or anything "perfect" but it show how the "block" was pretty much similar in 4.1 for warrior / pal damage absorb wise.
Edited by Earthquakes on 5/15/2011 2:28 PM PDT
Noone has data to really matters to Blizzard.

Blizzard just see "how many players tank with X class" and they nerf that class till people switch.
They rely on players to tell them what is strongest.

And the fact countless paladins now plans to change class to warriors or DK next patch should raise a flag where next nerfs are going to go.

I went into this xpac tanking on a paladin, I eat the drop of parry and dodge like every other tank, where in an expansion you can normally expect a boost in relative power, I just felt gimped and inadequate. Since then nerf have been raining left and right but the 4.2 one is just one too much.

I am preparing a warrior already, I've got time to gear up till 4.2.
85 Human Paladin
7460
05/15/2011 01:22 PMPosted by Caeless
No established raid tank cares about their DPS, or their threat. Vengeance carries us all the way, and next tier it will continue to do the same.


You disregard the initial build up of threat. If I take some odd spike in the early stages of the fight, maybe due to lag, and have to give up dps and threat before vengeance is stacked it's bad enough. Now if the numbers are right we'll be taking enough damage that it'll take longer to build up initial threat. Maybe you don't care, others do.

05/15/2011 01:22 PMPosted by Caeless
Not True. We currently take less damage than every other tank, even after the WoG nerf thanks to SoI. This will likely put us middle of the pack.




Math indicates we'll be taking about 10% more damage than right now. We currently take what about 3% less damage than a warrior. This may be fine if we resort to WoG every 20 seconds. However, the Devs have stated that they want WoG to be an occasionally used ability. During 4.1 it has become that. If this change goes in it might become an ability used regularly every 20 seconds.

05/15/2011 12:10 PMPosted by Feanorion
Even WoG'ing on cd, we will still take a LOT more damage than other tanks.


My main point was that the Devs stated they didn't want paladins to feel like they had to use WoG or feel like they are playing sub-optimally. If the Ho.Sh. nerf goes in then they might create a situation in which Paladins who are not using WoG every time it comes off of CD will be playing wrong.
90 Draenei Paladin
10210
05/15/2011 02:24 PMPosted by Earthquakes
The only problem was spamming WoG and it was fix. If SoI is considered in that nerf, let me tell you I cripple my dps badly and my agro for a very small heal. if SoI is a problem nerf SoI ...


With just a 21% uptime on seal of insight and no WoG usage, our MT had a very comparable HPS to our warriors, and the warrior had to use a 3 minute cooldown to keep comparable.

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-82m5lpnkp9hyub2v/sum/healingDone/?s=7172&e=7737

Pre 4.1 Our MT had 2.5k HPS with both WoG and SoI rolling (uncertain of SoI uptime on this fight). SoI healing was very comparable to WoG usage: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-kt7zqy26frrhm0yt/sum/healingDone/?s=8365&e=8896

Regardless, SoI allows for a very substantial amount of healing (approximately 600 HPS if you compare my SoI free healing on that fight to his SoI heavy healing).

600 HPS is more self-healing than a warrior can put out with all of their abilities running. It's not a trivial amount of self-healing. And yes, WoG was nerfed, but not completely. We can still use it for absorbs and heals and get a fairly substantial output from it as well.
85 Goblin Warrior
9500
seal of insight is terrible. it may heal for a bit, but those little ticks (at the cost of threat by not using seal of truth) wont mean a thing with 250k health pools and raid bosses hitting for considerably more than current raid content. I would rather have shield block and critical block, than weak healing. crit blocking an 80k melee hit or miniscule amounts of healing via insight, which would you prefer?


You know nothing. Seal of insight is far from insignificant. On a fight with considerable uptime of damage intake, it is a very significant factor. Not to mention it scales with vengeance. Constant passive healing on the scale of SoI is OP, I see this nerf as a poor way to fix the problem.

You disregard the initial build up of threat. If I take some odd spike in the early stages of the fight, maybe due to lag, and have to give up dps and threat before vengeance is stacked it's bad enough. Now if the numbers are right we'll be taking enough damage that it'll take longer to build up initial threat. Maybe you don't care, others do.


He is correct, no raid tanks cares about his threat at this point. If DPS are pulling aggro, it is 100% the DPS's fault (assuming the tank is actually attempting to tank).

Math indicates we'll be taking about 10% more damage than right now. We currently take what about 3% less damage than a warrior. This may be fine if we resort to WoG every 20 seconds. However, the Devs have stated that they want WoG to be an occasionally used ability. During 4.1 it has become that. If this change goes in it might become an ability used regularly every 20 seconds.


I believe that "occasional" means every 20 seconds. But for real, if you're outperforming other tanks not using WoG on CD, what should blizzard balance you around?

Here's a log for my paladin's H Maloriak kill
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ksq9ishwfpt78hd9/details/54/?s=588&e=1180

70% uptime on SoI, 31% OH.
320,000 healing. Add that to nearly 400,000 WoG Heal/Absorb. Far from insignificant.
Edited by Chikens on 5/15/2011 3:10 PM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
8270
This thread is still inaccurate and doesn't look at net damage taken. There are still other factors that need to be considered, such as SoI healing, WoG healing and cooldowns.

It's much too early to to call, and I don't think anyone has done a full look at the packages as a whole since Zarko's numbers in 4.0.3


Zarko's spreadsheet only looked at 1 shield block every min otherwise it ignored CDs.
85 Goblin Warrior
9500
05/15/2011 03:10 PMPosted by Ðemolition
Reesi would like a word with you


So a well known tank/forum goer cares about their dps. Doesn't change the fact that it's a non-issue in a raiding environment.
85 Human Paladin
7460
05/15/2011 03:04 PMPosted by Chikens
I believe that "occasional" means every 20 seconds. But for real, if you're outperforming other tanks not using WoG on CD, what should blizzard balance you around?


No that becomes regular as often as possible.
85 Goblin Warrior
9500
05/15/2011 03:29 PMPosted by Fangthane
No that becomes regular as often as possible.

It was merely a joke!
85 Human Paladin
7460
Oh. my humor on the interwebs detector is nonfunctional due to a hangover.
90 Dwarf Death Knight
13595
05/15/2011 03:19 PMPosted by Chikens
So a well known tank/forum goer cares about their dps. Doesn't change the fact that it's a non-issue in a raiding environment.


...

Tank DPS matters.

Usually, pretending otherwise is just a way of fishing for an excuse to be lazy and not maximize yours. But since you're using it as an excuse to ignore a disparity in balance you get points for creativity.
85 Goblin Warrior
9500
05/15/2011 03:40 PMPosted by Arcdeek
Tank DPS matters.

Not in this tier. There is a reason competent tanks avoid expertise/hit like the plague.
85 Goblin Warrior
9500
05/15/2011 03:49 PMPosted by Mnemoniq
Seal of Insight is trash and doesn't actually change the way a healer will heal a paladin tank.

Just because you don't see a noticeable difference in the way you're healed, doesn't change the fact that SoI is a significant passive heal.
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