World of Warcraft®

I

05/15/2011 03:40 PMPosted by Arcdeek

So a well known tank/forum goer cares about their dps. Doesn't change the fact that it's a non-issue in a raiding environment.

...

Tank DPS matters.

Usually, pretending otherwise is just a way of fishing for an excuse to be lazy and not maximize yours. But since you're using it as an excuse to ignore a disparity in balance you get points for creativity.

If you have to choose between Survivability and Threat, Survivability wins every time. That's what the SoT vs SoI argument is about.

The good part to that? You can switch in combat! Man being dynamic is hard stuff!

I just did a direct comparison using Celyndrashad's calculations using my own gear set.

Come 4.2 I'll be taking approximately 9% more damage per melee hit. This doesn't factor in that the fact that my dodge/parry values aren't at optimal levels assuming a 30% block modifier, at which point the damage differential will very likely decrease as there are a number of sub-optimal rating points being used in my current gear set assuming 4.2 values.

That's 9% melee damage increase. Assuming your average 40% magic damage, 60% melee damage fight, that's a 5.4% increase to overall damage taken. Assuming correct balance of stats, i could very likely see these numbers going lower than a 5% change in overall damage. Not to mention that Prot Pally's get so much passive healing which works very well in the 40/60 split where as Warriors don't, I see the classes coming out quite balanced (assuming no cooldowns, of which Pally's have more of).

Also, none of the math so far has taken into account the buff to the blocking meta from 1% to 3% which is fairly significant in terms of Mastery value.

Lastly, Celyndrashad's 13% "increased damage taken" number tends to make the situation look much worse than it actually is because it's such a large number.

05/15/2011 03:49 PMPosted by Mnemoniq

You know nothing. Seal of insight is far from insignificant. On a fight with considerable uptime of damage intake, it is a very significant factor. Not to mention it scales with vengeance. Constant passive healing on the scale of SoI is OP, I see this nerf as a poor way to fix the problem.

Seal of Insight is trash and doesn't actually change the way a healer will heal a paladin tank.

It absolutely does change the way a healer will heal a paladin tank.

That's like saying Hot's don't change the way you heal a tank, so you shouldn't bother casting them.

SoI is a "significant heal" in the aggregate, but the actual individual heal isn't noticable; even in your log it only ticked for an average of 2700/hit.

05/15/2011 04:02 PMPosted by Lesaberisa

SoI is a "significant heal" in the aggregate, but the actual individual heal isn't noticable; even in your log it only ticked for an average of 2700/hit.

and 400 additional armor on a piece of gear is only significant in the aggregate, but we still gear for it because we look at the overall benefit, not the individual benefit per hit.

05/15/2011 04:05 PMPosted by Caeless

SoI is a "significant heal" in the aggregate, but the actual individual heal isn't noticable; even in your log it only ticked for an average of 2700/hit.

and 400 additional armor on a piece of gear is only significant in the aggregate, but we still gear for it because we look at the overall benefit, not the individual benefit per hit.

I'm not sure what your point is?

I'm not saying SoI is useless (I use it on some boss fights), rather that if you look only at the aggregate healing done you exaggerate its value.

Anyway if SoI / WoG is the problem nerf / fix those ability. Seriously i cant even believe they nerf block that much base on SoI healing ... it would be stupid.

WoG was a problem .. they nerf it ... pretty simple. If SoI is a problem ... nerf / fix SoI very please.

SoI is "overpowered" when you look at its paper value. The healing is not insignificant in relation to the size of your HP pool. The healing IS insignificant in terms of how the rest of your raid is going to play based on your choice of seals.

Whether or not it's a noticeable difference to you doesn't matter. The fact that you're receiving extra survivability at the cost of nothing significant, and then NOT being balanced around it is overpowered.

and to think i thought bobs replacement would be smrt.

Guess i was wrong. =(

Chikens you can stop now.

WoG got nerfed, SoI is really a trade-off, and we have a magic CD.

There's nothing left to fight with paladins over.

I'm not fighting with paladins. I have one of my own, and love her and my warrior equally.

WoG is still very good. SoI if anything, SHOULDN'T exist. It's excessive survivability that isn't needed (not to mention static and boring). Hell, get rid of WoG and buff paladins elsewhere. Self heals are a detriment to balance.

Why don't you have Blood Craze, btw? I'm dying to hear the answer to this one.

I understand the heal isn't very noticeable. The fact that it's always there passively healing is a problem. You can easily accomplish an encounter without it (and have relatively same intake as other tanks). So then why does it even need to be there? It's purely extra padding which looks grossly OP on paper, and unnecessary in practice.

As for Bloodcraze; I don't use it because it's an insanely small, UNRELIABLE, 3 point talent heal could be better spent on utility. Sorry.

The only thing you need to give up for Blood Craze is... damage. Sounds eerily similar to the paladin situation, doesn't it?

Are warriors balanced around Blood Craze?

Should they be?

Now you're grasping.
I can give up Blood Craze to get Impending Victory (Survivability) Safeguard (Raid Utility) Heavy Repercussions (Burst Damage) Gag Order (Silence/Interrupt), and many more. You should take a look at the warrior tree before making accusations like that.

Warriors aren't balanced around Blood Craze for my previous reason stated. It's an optional, unreliable (very unreliable), and small (very small) heal (passive heals tend to run at 30%+ OH as well). Go ahead and balance warriors around having it, the difference would be null.

Edit: Don't ask why I don't have Impending Victory. I've been meaning to get it, just haven't cared enough to hit up the warrior trainer.

I'd just like to throw in that only Paladins and Warriors get the dubious honor of being able to completely ignore threat stats. Druids and DKs need to gear for some hit and expertise in order to not completely screw over our mitigation. Druids have it worse, actually - when a DK misses, is dodged, or is parried, we lose time. Druids lose an opportunity to get their mitigation.

And, let's be honest - how many tanks actually do completely ignore threat stats? Because when the DPS is pushing 20k in regular 10m raids, having a tank that can't break 7k DPS because they have a 28% chance to fail to land an attack is going to cause problems.

Vengeance will keep up your sustained threat, to a certain extent. It is not the end-all be-all panacea to threat, especially if you have competent and geared DPS.

Vengeance will keep up your sustained threat, to a certain extent. It is not the end-all be-all panacea to threat, especially if you have competent and geared DPS.

Competent and geared DPS don't pull aggro. I'm not an expert on DK's and Druids, but there is absolutely no reason to gear for Hit/Expertise as a Paladin/Warrior.

05/15/2011 04:58 PMPosted by Mnemoniq

You can get Blood Craze AND Impending Victory AND Safeguard AND Gag Order and give up nothing but damage.

Well, I didn't realize you could do that. I have a strong feeling that avoiding those damage talents would be a huge hit to your threat. I'd have to see the maths between SoI vs. SoT and Those talents vs. Absent talents to draw a conclusion on it. But I bet it's a much higher hit than 600 dps.

I am bringing this up for a very important reason: the heal from Blood Craze is about as significant as the heal from Seal of Insight in terms of how it will actually affect the way your raid plays. The trade-off in both cases is exactly the same: damage for self healing. Granted, a paladin can make this switch on the fly, but you're not arguing convenience--you're arguing effectiveness. And in that light, both Seal of Insight and Blood Craze are in the same boat.

The thing is, that it doesn't matter whether it affects the way your raid plays. It affects how you play and it gives you a decent buffer against sustained damage. The only resemblance Blood Craze shares with SoI is it being passive.

Blood Craze can be a significant loss of Utility/damage with literally almost literally 0 benefit. Blood Craze is unreliable, significantly weaker, has a high talent cost, and has large overheal.

SoI makes your damage take a hit, but adds a considerable buffer zone. It is also very reliable, has weak but constant heals, a slight damage loss but is interchangeable with SoT mid-fight, and predictable overhealing.

Chikens you can stop now.

WoG got nerfed, SoI is really a trade-off, and we have a magic CD.

There's nothing left to fight with paladins over.

Oh is he going at it again? Last night it was "paladins have more raid utility, QQ".

Keep in mind you're not just losing seal damage and censure when you swap from SoT to SoI but also likely losing 10 expertise from your prime glyph, it's a pretty large loss of damage actually (both directly and indirectly through lost holy power generation). I want to say it was calculated as a 10-15% damage/threat loss but I forget where I saw that.

You're still grossly exaggerating the SoI heal though, a 2.6k heal every swing if procced isn't a buffer zone.