holy shield in 4.2, help me understand.

85 Goblin Warrior
9500
05/15/2011 05:21 PMPosted by Jenskii
Oh is he going at it again? Last night it was "paladins have more raid utility, QQ".


I never complained that they had more raid usable utility. I simply stated the fact that they do.

05/15/2011 05:22 PMPosted by Lesaberisa
Keep in mind you're not just losing seal damage and censure when you swap from SoT to SoI but also likely losing 10 expertise from your prime glyph, it's a pretty large loss of damage actually (both directly and indirectly through lost holy power generation). I want to say it was calculated as a 10-15% damage/threat loss but I forget where I saw that.


There is a different glyph other than 10 exp, you can use WoG, ShotR or HotR in place of it.

05/15/2011 05:22 PMPosted by Lesaberisa
You're still grossly exaggerating the SoI heal though, a 2.6k heal every swing if procced isn't a buffer zone.

It may not be noticeable for most encounters. It shines more in low/sustained damage encounters. Most of which are probably dungeons. It is however absolutely a buffer zone for some raid encounters the end phases when healers are going OOM.

You may not agree with that, but if anything, you should be able to agree with me that there is no reason for the SoI heal to exist.

The dude's argument is that SoI's pitiful healing is somehow "overpowered" and Blood Craze's pitiful healing is somehow not. I'm done with this argument.

They're in 2 separate categories of "pitiful"
Edited by Chikens on 5/15/2011 5:42 PM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
05/15/2011 05:41 PMPosted by Chikens
There is a different glyph other than 10 exp, you can use WoG, ShotR or HotR in place of it.


Dont talk about crap you do not understand. SoT is FAR more damage than ShotR or HotR. WoG is already in the standard spec and we usually take both it and SoT.

05/15/2011 05:41 PMPosted by Chikens
I never complained that they had more raid usable utility. I simply stated the fact that they do.


You stated we have more personal utility which we don't.

05/15/2011 05:41 PMPosted by Chikens
It may not be noticeable for most encounters. It shines more in low/sustained damage encounters. Most of which are probably dungeons. It is however absolutely a buffer zone for some raid encounters the end phases when healers are going OOM.


Same as blood craze.

05/15/2011 05:41 PMPosted by Chikens
You may not agree with that, but if anything, you should be able to agree with me that there is no reason for the SoI heal to exist.


PVP. Leveling, and holy paladins in both PVP and PVE.

05/15/2011 05:41 PMPosted by Chikens
They're in 2 separate categories of "pitiful"


Only if you are completely biased for one class as you definitely are.
Edited by Celyndrashad on 5/15/2011 5:46 PM PDT
85 Goblin Warrior
9500
05/15/2011 05:45 PMPosted by Celyndrashad
You stated we have more personal utility which we don't.

Yes, you do. I'm not going to make a list of all the warrior/paladin utility, it just makes you look like a biased jackass. It's common knowledge that warriors lack raid usable utility.
05/15/2011 05:45 PMPosted by Celyndrashad
Same as blood craze.

Blood Craze doesn't "shine" on any encounter. It is a horrible talent that even damage/threat talents are more worth it than that useless thing.
PVP. Leveling, and holy paladins in both PVP and PVE.

So it's significant enough for PvP and leveling, but not raiding?

I'm obviously speaking of prot paladins, I have no idea why you're trying to argue for any other spec in a tanking forum. I'm not going to discuss PvP, as it is in no way related to the tanking forum. For leveling, paladins already have a multitude of heals, WoG, and the Crusade talent.

05/15/2011 05:45 PMPosted by Celyndrashad
Only if you are completely biased for one class as you definitely are.


You go ahead and show me a log with Blood Craze doing anywhere near the healing SoI could do in the same time frame. I am in no way biased towards either. I tank HMs on both my Paladin and Warrior, i'm simply making observations between the two.
Edited by Chikens on 5/15/2011 5:59 PM PDT
85 Goblin Warrior
9500
05/15/2011 06:07 PMPosted by Borfin
I'm confused honestly.

Everyone is. The paladin mastery as well should really be rethought. It's not only insanely boring, it is also completely useless after block cap.
85 Human Paladin
7460
So has anyone posted wow logs in a raid from the PTR? It would cut down the speculation a bit with actual information.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
05/15/2011 05:59 PMPosted by Chikens
Yes, you do. I'm not going to make a list of all the warrior/paladin utility, it just makes you look like a biased jackass. It's common knowledge that warriors lack raid usable utility.


PERSONAL utility. You STATED we have more raid and personal utility. So make a list of all the personal utility of warriors vs paladins. Lets see what you get.

05/15/2011 05:59 PMPosted by Chikens
Blood Craze doesn't "shine" on any encounter. It is a horrible talent that even damage/threat talents are more worth it than that useless thing.


Same can and has been said about SoI.

So it's significant enough for PvP and leveling, but not raiding?

I'm obviously speaking of prot paladins, I have no idea why you're trying to argue for any other spec in a tanking forum. I'm not going to discuss PvP, as it is in no way related to the tanking forum. For leveling, paladins already have a multitude of heals, WoG, and the Crusade talent.


You said it had no reason to exist. I just listed off reasons for it to exist. You cant really cast a heal when you have mobs hitting on you and can potentially interrupt you. Crusade only works for when you already killed the mob.

05/15/2011 05:59 PMPosted by Chikens
You go ahead and show me a log with Blood Craze doing anywhere near the healing SoI could do in the same time frame. I am in no way biased towards either. I tank HMs on both my Paladin and Warrior, i'm simply making observations between the two.


You show me how either a 800ehps or 160ehps heal would change the way a healer heals you when you are getting pounded for 30k every 1.8 seconds?
90 Draenei Paladin
10210
05/15/2011 06:32 PMPosted by Celyndrashad
You show me how either a 800ehps or 160ehps heal would change the way a healer heals you when you are getting pounded for 30k every 1.8 seconds?


Off-tanking on Halfus. Intelligent healers whom you communicate with can be told to ignore healing you to full as SoI will likely get you pretty close after an AoE damage phase.

In fact, any time you are off-tanking and you take incidental damage, you can largely be ignored by healers as you are self-sufficient.

As well, a constant influx of small heals, will allow you to move up slowly.

Saying SoI is insignificant is like saying HoT's are insignificant, and we all know for a fact that isn't true.
90 Human Paladin
17775
Off-tanking on Halfus. Intelligent healers whom you communicate with can be told to ignore healing you to full as SoI will likely get you pretty close after an AoE damage phase.

In fact, any time you are off-tanking and you take incidental damage, you can largely be ignored by healers as you are self-sufficient.

As well, a constant influx of small heals, will allow you to move up slowly.

Saying SoI is insignificant is like saying HoT's are insignificant, and we all know for a fact that isn't true.


Lol?

Offtanking Halfus after the Drakes are down and there's bugger all to heal and healers will be bored looking for something to actually heal and pad their meters, AND you'll be healed up to full anyway from residual hots and heals from the time you stopped tanking is your best example of SoI's significance?
Edited by Darielle on 5/15/2011 8:38 PM PDT
90 Draenei Paladin
10210
Off-tanking Cho'gall after adds are down, off-tanking while waiting for adds to spawn on maloriak. Off-tanking on Nefarian, off-tanking stormlings on Al'akir.

Any fight that has a tank swap.

These are just some of the examples of how it changes how healing changes because of SoI usage.


As mentioned, saying SoI isn't useful is like saying HoT's aren't useful. We all clearly know that isn't the case.
90 Human Paladin
17775
Off-tanking Cho'gall after adds are down, off-tanking while waiting for adds to spawn on maloriak. Off-tanking on Nefarian, off-tanking stormlings on Al'akir.


No, not at all. You'll be hit by AoE heals that heal the actual AoE damage, hot and bouncing smart heals, and residual heals/hots left over from when you were tanking anyway.

No one's saying SoI isn't "useful", in the sense that ">0" is not "0". It's definitely pitiful and won't change anything for a healer, and you're backing around in circles trying to find a nonexistent situation.
Edited by Darielle on 5/15/2011 8:49 PM PDT
90 Draenei Paladin
10210
No, not at all. You'll be hit by AoE heals that heal the actual AoE damage and residual heals/hots left over from when you were tanking anyway.




05/15/2011 08:41 PMPosted by Caeless
As mentioned, saying SoI isn't useful is like saying HoT's aren't useful. We all clearly know that isn't the case.



You're wrong. Hot's change how healers heal, why wouldn't SoI, effectively another HoT, not also do the same?

Not only does it add a buffer over time, but because of the constant intake of heals, healers can spend more time casting mana efficient heals over their larger or faster more costly heals. The exact same way any HoT would work.

It changes how healers heal. You might not know it, but that's probably because you've never played a healer.

Ask any healer to heal a paladin who uses WoG + SoI and that same healer to go heal a warrior and let me know which one they say is easier to heal? Hell, even cut out WoG for a third test and let me know. They'll say the paladin every time
Edited by Caeless on 5/15/2011 8:51 PM PDT
90 Human Paladin
17775
As mentioned, saying SoI isn't useful is like saying HoT's aren't useful. We all clearly know that isn't the case.

No one's saying SoI isn't "useful", in the sense that ">0" is not "0". It's definitely pitiful and won't change anything for a healer, and you're backing around in circles trying to find a nonexistent situation.
90 Draenei Paladin
10210
05/15/2011 08:49 PMPosted by Feanorion
Any fight that has a tank swap.


So on threat-tight tank-swap encounters, where you are taunting and have zero Vengeance built up, you want to give up several thousand TPS?


TPS doesn't matter, and vengeance builds up immediately. As well, threat doesn't diminish. You only build on it. There are no tank and spank fights anymore. The closest we get to that is Chimaeron, and even then there's still some movement and a large hit debuff.

Once you get to that 45 second mark and vengeance has stacked to full, your completely take off on threat. 10 expertise and seal of truth don't matter, AND guess what? You can SWITCH SEALS IN COMBAT! Hard concept ya?

There are no "threat-tight" encounters, and the good part about taunting is, it puts you on-top of the other tank! Brilliant idea huh?

So between threat not diminishing, and almost every fight having multiple targets, or movement and vengeance, it's neigh impossible to catch up to a quality tank who knows how to build threat. SoT or not.
90 Draenei Paladin
10210
05/15/2011 08:50 PMPosted by Darielle
As mentioned, saying SoI isn't useful is like saying HoT's aren't useful. We all clearly know that isn't the case.

No one's saying SoI isn't "useful", in the sense that ">0" is not "0". It's definitely pitiful and won't change anything for a healer, and you're backing around in circles trying to find a nonexistent situation.


You have never played a healer with even a single hot. I can tell.
100 Human Paladin
18040
If such an experiment could actually be done fairly, the difference would almost certainly be due to WoG and not SoI. On a hit by hit level, SoI is just noise; it's a "dumb" heal that doesn't heal for much at all..

As for comparing it to a HoT, does your tank healer say "well [tank] has a 2.6k tick of rejuv about to hit, I should use a different heal"? Of course not.

Using the tired "you haven't played a healer" card is stupid, I've healed every fight on normal on my shaman as well as hardmode Halfus attempts (in an alt run), and I never noticed our pally tank's seal usage because there's too much damage for it to noticably change things.

*edit* And from a tank's perspective I use it because, piled up, it maybe makes a tiny bit of difference on some fights (like Nef), I really really doubt my 2.5-2.7k heals really matter when Ony is hitting me for 30k or her breaths tick for 28k each or whatever. Seriously.
Edited by Lesaberisa on 5/15/2011 8:59 PM PDT
For laughs, here is a parse from Heroic Halfus last night. My other tank ran SoI from the start, I didn't put it up until well into the fight because of threat issues (our interrupter is a Frost DK).

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/sixztyqrmaya141g/?s=4902&e=5164
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